First of all, I want to apologies for this story, because it is not properly edited. I keep adding things (to answer reviews) but I really don´t have time for edit it. Here, at the top I will write some updates, but the real text is underneath this, so if you haven´t read that yet, I suggest you reading that first to get the idea of what this is all about.
Note, this story is not meant to insult anyone, but rather to disagree and stand against those "opinions" that Ikeda has.
Update:
Amerom, I want to thank you for your reviews. You made your point very clear as I made very clear in the story about André. We disagree with many things.
It is bullshit what Ikeda said in those interviews. I am very much against those. I said my opinion very clearly in the critique-text. It could be great if she would come clean and make her statement about women´s rights, and I will not repeat my arguments here, because yo can find them below. I have a zero tolerance of what comes to mistreatment of women, children and animals. I have a short temperament and I do show it, if necessary.
And "my interpretation", yeah, it was my interpretation; that is this second chapter right here: the fact that André would probably not have been alive in the early 19th century. Him being alive was my interpretation. You know why? Because the fact is that after been thrown out, his salary would have decreased so much that he would have difficulty of staying alive (not enough to buy food that would have kept him satisfied), let alone after he got blinded. Who would really hire a blind? And after the Revolution broke out, Paris became bloody...Many heads were dropped (especially during at the early 1790s)
Ikeda s "opinion" only reflect on both the discrimination of women in Japan even today AND her own discriminatory thoughts on women and their rights. And there is someone in this site, who idealize Ikeda s disgusting and twisted ideas about women as object for men to use. She seems to fantasize about those things. I wonder what s wrong with her. Lack of empathy, at least. But think about Rosemary West, who together with her husband tortured, raped and killed many innocent women. I used to like André, before this person came to talk shit about him and the interviews given by Ikeda. I had thought that he would have a good heart and that he would treat women properly, with the respect, but these interviews change the picture completely.
As for you, I hope you have everything good in your life. I never meant to upset anyone with my writings. I was and still am against those discriminatory ideas-NOW and FOREVER!
And "many men" does not justify anything. "Many people" for instance can use drugs, but that does not make it turn good. Many people supported Hitler, Mao and Stalin, even when they killed millions of people. That was an extreme case, but what I mean is that "many" men/people etc. does not justify anything! And even if the law itself does not discriminate something, doe not mean that the action itself turns good. For instance, if the law does not say raping an animal is a crime, the act itself is still considered disgusting and wrong! In that case, the law should be changed. There is something wrong with the law. And with the perpetrator himself.
Besides, you can read about those "many men" in the 18th century from the history books. BUT the historians/social historians/feminist historians etc. do NOT argue that those were romantically in love, unlike Ikeda lies about André (among other lies about him). Those "many men" were accustomed to see the marriage as an economic institution and they saw women as object they could use the way they wanted to. THEY WERE NOT IN LOVE! NOT UNSELFISH; nor GOODHEARTED MEN! but rather self-centered people, who cared nothing of the sufferings of women. In the real history books the reality comes very visible and realistic. If you can now see the problem between the interviews given by Ikeda and her manga/anime story. Those two are inconsistent with each other. And, like I wrote before, those "opinions" are reflections of her attitudes towards see, the picture Ikeda gives about André in her interviews contradicts the Manga/Anime.
And, of course, someone might answer to to that, using the same argument as "many...":"many noble ladies married noble men". So, Oscar would indeed marry a noble man.
To answer a review about Victor. I said in the text below that all men in the series are probably bad, one way or the other. Let me clarify that: I have been starting to get inside into gender issues in Japan, and I have noticed that double standard, gender inequality, sexual harassment and many other gender related issues are bad in Japan. By that statement I meant that Ikeda seems to have a very "traditional" way of looking things. Women are subordinate. By this I mean that for her it's normal that women stay home, take care for the children, don´t object if men harass them etc. When you think about Oscar, for instance, she is very naïve and falls for the first guy (André) who "confesses" his love for her without questioning anything, without knowing his true colors. At the beginning of the series, her father decides to raise her as a boy and during the series she acts more like a man. She is independent, brave and she does all those things that women are not allowed to do. But what happens in the end? She falls for a guy out f her naivety because she is inexperienced in love and accepts to become "his wife", meaning that she will become a subordinate. She will return to her feminine role as a "wife", which in this case means (it will become later) that she will have to stand his behaviour, because she is his possession (which has nothing to do with love). There are more this kinds of stories in Japanese cultural history, where cross dressing and gender roles are reversed, but at the end they will all return to their own gender roles. Because Ikeda´s contradictory statements and the romantic Manga create many problems and inconsistencies, I do not trust her to be able to create a male character that is suitable for a romance story for teenage girls (and that´s why I stated that). But, about Victor, again. I think that he is better than André. Why? Because the way he handled the situation with Oscar. Oscar refused his proposal and he accepted it. He didn´t try to kill her or rape her. He instead honoured her wishes and let her go.
About Fersen, I do not like him (I do not like playboys). But even he is better than André. Because at least he saw Oscar as an equal friend, and did not try to seduce her or take advantages of her.
Of course, France was full of men, and I'm sure that there is someone suitable for Oscar, whether within the series itself or outside. Even when I don´t care about the series any more, I do care about Oscar and her happiness.
And then, let me once more tell you; there isn´t just one "opinion" that Ikeda made, but she has given more interviews about André and according to those he really was a playboy. So, he did not "do it" just once.
Besides, a good and kind man with a heart wouldn´t do it even once. It suggests that there is something terrible wrong with his attitude towards women, in overall.
That´s one of the problem that was pointed out in other review; there is no suggestion of André as bad, and treating women like sex objects, and that is exactly my point; I thought he was a good man who could treat women well, but according to the interviews Ikeda had given, the story is completely different. In both Manga and Anime there isn´t suggestions about André behaving like that, but I am talking about the interviews. If it were just those Manga and anime, then it would have been fine, because there he is nice and I would still have liked him. He did some bad things there, as well, but no one´s perfect. But now those bad things he did will be re-examined here, as well. I had hard time to accept those interviews, because of the complete different picture that those give about André. He used to be the second best character (after Oscar) for me, and the best male character, but now he´s one of the top bottom. I cannot just ignore those interviews. I am against those. For many reasons.
In this text I want to point out the picture of him as he is said to be in the interviews by Ikeda. Those interviews are now the main point that creates many problems. Those I will analyse and compare to the Manga and the reality of the time period, as well.
But about Oscar dressing in men´s clothing. That´s not the issue here, André would accept her wearing men´s clothing. But what I try to say is that in historical Japan there were stories about women who took the roles of men, and vice versa. Meaning that the women would behave like men, have privileges meant for men and so on. In those tales it was best shown by women dressing as men. But at the end of the tale, the women went back to their feminine roles. Even when this includes the dresses, this is not the main point. The main point is that these women accepted the "traditional" role for women as less than men, they became the obedient, silent "other" who would "understand" their husbands going to "see" other women, their subordinate to tolerate the double standard. So, in this sense Oscar gave up on her career as a soldier (male role) in order to become a wife and mother. In Europe at the 18th century there were no women in the military. Noble women hardly ever worked. The commoner women usually had to work, but after getting married, they had to take care of the children and the household. They usually did some kind of work within their homes (for instance knitting for customers) or work in their farm. So, in this sense, if Oscar wanted to marry, she would have to give up on her career. Also, think about the danger of the military work, for instance; to a pregnant woman. And even that is not my main point, because I did write about it myself in my story the Second Chance. There, I thought that Oscar (although I did not write it there) would give her career as soldier (because of many reasons) but instead she worked at home, teaching fencing and perhaps wrote a book about military life.
But my main point here is that (actually it comes in the below text) that she fell for a guy, who treated women badly, and I very much doubt his ability to change. I have read number of cases of this kind, where a woman falls for a guy she thinks is amazing. But, then the reality comes into picture, he starts to cheat on her. When she confronts him, they start to argue. Instead of stopping the cheating, the man only hides his behaviour better, and cheating continues years. Besides that, the wife is usually confronted with abusive behaviour from the husband. Either psychological or physical, or both. With the history of André´s behaviour (in the text below), it is more than likely that something like this would happen. It´s the attitude that these guys have as women being sex objects, together with their enormous ego that creates problems (among other problems they might have). This kind of a picture I got from those interviews about André, seeing women as sex objects, not caring about anybody but himself etc. (the explanations are below)She already fell for him, but how long she would stand this kind of behaviour? As being raised as a man, she should be strong, but I don´t know. Many women (in real life) does not leave the abusive partner but instead try to defend them and try to find excuses for their behaviour. This is probably because the women are still so in love with the partners that they are so blinded and cannot accept the reality. This way, Ikeda is picturing Oscar as very naive, who believes André´s lies and fell for those. I think even that his behaviour when he tried to kill her was in fact a psychological blackmail; "if you give yourself to another guy, I will kill myself and you." Let´s not forget the fact that he was himself fucking around. But, hey! He´s a man! Double standard! These rules don´t concern men.
You may also want to read my other text about this subject. Also, there you can find the sources for these interviews.
This is an answer to Anna (and of course, to everyone). First, I want to thank you for your review. I am glad that you doubt me. Doubt is good. One should always ask questions and find answers. My history teacher said that one should always "go to the original sources" . For example, an historian who is specializing in medieval history should always go to the archives and read the original medieval written documents. And that means one should learn Latin. Ever since elementary school teachers have been encouraging us to learn different languages. In the case of the medieval historian he/she has to learn Latin. Otherwise what kind of a researcher he/she would be if unable to read the original texts? That is exactly what I have done; I have read the original Japanese books/magazines of the interviews of Ikeda. But let´s get back to that later.
About writing a perfect character. No, André was never perfect. It is more visible in the Manga version. But now I want to discuss about Anime and Manga. Those, who are familiar to only one; there are differences. Anime-I liked it better than Manga-is much nicer than Manga. André in the anime does not try to poison Oscar as he does in the Manga. That is not the only difference. Remember that the Manga is more original than Anime, so I prefer that. And also, I prefer the Japanese version instead of the English one, because Japanese is the original language.
Do you remember the episode where André saves Oscar from the chandelier that was about to crush her? Well, in the Manga (of the Japanese version of 1995) it is other way around. So, Oscar saves André. She saves a person that is hired to protect her? Well, these things happens. I forgive him. He´s not perfect.
Remember the incident when André´s clumsiness caused the accident where Marie Antoinette almost died? Well, that was an accident, unfortunate one, but he didn´t do it on purpose. By the way, the punishment that the king was about to give his, was historically accurate (in those days even a minor crime would cause a person, especially for a commoner, losing his/her body part or even life ) BUT I think he went overboard. The death penalty would have been far too harsh. Luckily Oscar intervened, and I must give credit for Fersen for defending André, as well. Anyway, André is clumsy. He´s even not that good at fencing. In the Anime version he takes the initiative to join the French Guards, but in the Manga version it was the general, who told him to do it. And also, remember the time when Oscar decided to go after the Black Knight? Well, in the Manga version he is much more reluctant. That is not all; in the berusaiyu no bara gaiden (side stories of the series) he seems to continue his reluctance that is evident in some parts. (I have noticed that at least those have some kind of translations available. Maybe fans have done this? Search online.)
So, he is not perfect. He is clumsy, reluctant to do what Oscar tells him to, not so good in fencing, and not as bright as Oscar, but those does not bother me. It is, however, totally different thing when he behaves badly towards women. There´s actually some kind of evidence within the Manga itself.
You should really get your hands on the Manga version (which you can do by yourself; old bookstores? online shops that sell old books/Manga? libraries?Or online versions of the Manga?). Preferably the most original translation of the Manga, because I have noticed differences even in versions published in different years. If you are fluent in English and some other language (for example, Italian) please look at them both and compare those, because depending on the language, the translations may come from different Japanese versions. Like I said, I had the 1995 version of the Manga. The original is from the beginning of the 1970s. I have once seen that, and there is difference. It seems that the character of André Grandier has been made nicer. I got the impression, when I was looking into the matter, that Ikeda somehow wants to keep this illusion of André ( the one I had before). It is visible when comparing the Manga and Anime versions and the different Manage versions. Also, I doubt that Ikeda thought that a foreigner (from her point of view) would read the interviews. Japanese people themselves live in highly hierarchical society, so even if they disagree with a person who has authority, they would never say that aloud. These interviews are kind of hidden away to make André look nicer. How many non-Japanese fan of Rose of Versailles understands written Japanese? And how many of those know about these interviews? I bet; not many. And Japanese don´t want to tell bad news. Besides, for me the best part of him was "kind" "unselfish" with a good heart etc. but that was just an illusion. So, yeah, I´m upset and angry, because he turned out to be complete opposite.
Anyway, in the original version of the Manga there is a very disturbing scene, that I knew but thought that he was not serious and only trying to get Oscar´s attention (but now I realize he would have gone through with it) , that is absent from the 1995s Japanese Manga version and, if I remember it correctly, also from the Anime. Remember, when Oscar met Rosalie for the first time? She was selling herself to Oscar because she had no money and her mother was ill. Well, in the original Manga version André asked "how much?"
When I heard about André being with a prostitute, (by the way it was very unpleasant way) I had a bad feeling about it. Because of my experiences (with reading neurology, psychology, criminal history, history of medicine and histories of detectives and watching crimes documentaries), I knew that one time would not usually remain one time. So, I started to look into it. And unfortunately my bad feeling was correct. I suggest you reading books/articles about these things, at least the researches done within gender studies about masculinity. Read the interviews and studies concerning the views of this type of guys. (go to your nearest university library to ask help). You´re eyes will open, when you understand what their thoughts are all about. Not very many are "curable". And also, I suggest you watch some crime documentaries, which you can find, for instance, on youtube. Try "murder documentaries" or "crime documentaries". Not all of those include the types of guys, but there are several cases.
"The sex "industry" [of today] operates within market dictates of supply and demand, and both sides have to take responsibility. Perpetrators on the supply side of the illegal sex industry are normally criminals and organized in what is a highly competitive and lucrative multimillion-dollar economy. On the demand side, users of prostitutes throughout the world are demographically diverse, and include men of all ages and characters. Sometimes these users may be ignorant — or choose to be ignorant — of the gender-based violence they involve themselves in"
( Broken bodies, broken dreams: Violence against women exposed (2005) United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (OCHA); Integrated Regional Information Networks (IRIN))
By the way, one cannot compare the 18th year old high school student of developed country to the 18th year old person in the 18the century France. Today, these high school students today are still very young, sometimes doing stupid things, in their teenage years, but in the 18th century Europe there was no "teenagers". Many of that age already had been working for years, many noble "women" were already married with children. In those days, person had a short period of childhood and after that became the adulthood with work and responsibilities. Many commoners (boys and girls alike) had already left their homes to work and to earn money for their future marriage. "Teenage years" is invention of the 20th century to prolong the childhood. So, an 18 year old in the 18th century France was an adult. So, André was not "young and foolish teenager".
About the translations, well, it is obvious that I cannot provide you any. Because the translation should be trustworthy (so the translator has to be independent and have no connections with me), but I will give you tips. First of all, prefer a person to do it. I have tried Google translator once just to see how it did. Well, it didn´t. The Japanese clause that I input there was only half translated right. Secondly, do not ask anyone to translate those all from cover to cover, because the information you are interested in, is scattered all over. These books/magazines include so much other information, as well. So, a person would have to go through those books/magazines and look for the information about André. By the way, In Japanese the term for "playboy" is "nikushoku danshi" meaning carnivore men (I have no idea where the term comes from ).
Now, finally, about the sources: yes, those are in can find the list of references at the end of the second chapter.
Thirdly, where to get a person to do that for you? If you already know someone, who is either fluent in Japanese or a Japanese is fluent in English (or some other language you may speak), you can ask him/her to help you. If not, then search for one. Send emails to different organizations/institutes, introduce yourself and explain them what you are looking for. Asking is always free, and mostly the people are nice to you. Try it.
In many countries there associations that have interest in Japan/Japanese culture. For example, there are multiple associations like that in my country "friends of the Japanese culture" being one. There is usually someone, who is fluent in Japanese.
Universities. Many universities have a centre for East Asian studies or Japanese studies, and even if they couldn´t provide the help you need, they can possible tell you where you could ask. Furthermore, if there is Japanese students who are fluent in English (or your native language), could also help you.
Institutions that provide language courses in Japanese. There are many different kinds of schools that offer at least some basic courses in Japanese and usually (at least in my country), the teacher is Japanese. Even if he/she couldn´t do it, you may get some suggestions.
Or just get connected with Japanese people. They might not be so fluent in English, but those who are, can possibly help you. With the experience that I have, Japanese people are very nice and worth to get to know, anyway. You don´t lose anything by trying. But if you ask a Japanese person a favour, remember to return the favour. That´s how it´s done in Japan.
You could always turn to your publishing house, that translates Japanese Manga. They might give you some ideas. Maybe, if you are lucky, they could translate the whole thing and publish in your own language, so that people would have access to those.
The most expensive way would be to use an official translator. There should be official translators in many countries. Either you native person, who is fluent in Japanese or a Japanese, who is fluent in English(your native language). Besides, like I said, the person would only have to look for the certain information, so only those parts would be translated.
There might be some other ways, as well. Think. Try. Do it. Ask. And, of course there is one way: learn the language yourself. It is difficult and it takes time, but it is worth it. In my opinion Japanese is one of the most beautiful languages that I know, so it is worth the effort. It is always good to learn something new, and your thoughts about things will also widen. It is not just the language that we learn, but also the culture.
But, now to the text:
I used to be a fan of Ikeda´s Shoujo Manga Rose of Versailles. But that changed. In the following I will tell you why.
Rose of Versailles is-I think-still very good when wanting to know the history of France and about the reasons that led to the Revolution. And also the character Oscar is amazing(and no, I don´t think she´s perfect). This is the final story I will ever publish about the series, and it is non-fiction writing.
Introduction
But here I´d like to discuss it from the different point of view: feminists' aspects. Why do I take this point of view? Because at the time when Rose of Versailles was published, in the early 1970s, the feminist movement was something new. Also I´ve heard that this Rose of Versailles is considered being of the kind, after all it had a strong woman character as a leading character there (Oscar). But when you look at it more closely, it is not.
The history of women is very fascinating, but at the same time sad. The Treatment of women depended on historical era, the social class among other things. But here I will bring up some main points from a very famous non-fiction book:
The daughters of Eve by Kaari Utrio:
Man had subjugated woman and she had become man´s possession, whose sexuality was strictly guarded. Woman wasn´t equally human as man was. Woman has been the merchandise in history.
Double standards (meaning that there were different rules and expectations for men and women) have risen from fears of men from thousands of years ago. Man had to control woman. There, where man is free to exercise his sexual impulse, woman is strictly tied to one man, and her purity is well guarded. Guarded because the fear of her disgracing her owner (read: father, brother or husband)
Because a husband couldn´t watch over the various men, who longed for his wife, he instead watched over his wife, restricting her life as much as possible.
Woman wasn´t a human, but a thing-an object that man owned. Marriage was an arrangement, in which a woman couldn´t influence herself. Woman was blamed for everything, after all-it was Eve who ate the apple in the paradise and both Adam and Eve had to leave. Men came up with the stories like that.
Through history woman´s life was restricted with many rules, and the husband could beat his own wife, the same husband that she was forced to marry in the first place. She could be abandoned, even killed by her father, brother or husband. If a husband abandoned her she had no other means to survive than becoming a prostitute. If a family had too many daughters (especially in the poorer part of the population), some of them were left to die. But boys were taken care of. Some unwanted baby girls were even sold to whorehouses, where they were first raised, and then forced to prostitution at a very young age. Within wealthier families, unwanted children were sometimes left in the hands of a caretaker in the hope that the baby would die. Or they were sent away to be raised by relatives, for instance. Girls in the wealthier families were forced to marry off as soon as possible.
As woman had to be a virgin when she married and stay loyal to her husband, the husband could fuck around as he pleased. He could, for example, mate with the servant girls, who-if unwilling-were thrown out without recommendations. But if they got pregnant, they were equally thrown out-without recommendations and with a ruined reputation that gave the no opportunities to work in any decent places. No one hired them, so the only way to support themselves was-prostitution.
This hypocritical double standards made woman the guilty part, even in the case of a rape. It was always the woman to blame.
In the 18th century France prostitutes usually "started their careers" because they had been raped while working, for example as maids, and they were to blame about it. While the men got off of the hook, the women were fired from their jobs because of that. They lost their reputation, and couldn´t get any job at all. In those days being unemployed, as we use the term, was illegal. So, they were forced to sell their bodies in order to live. They were looked down upon, suffering throughout their short lives-because there was no social security or medical knowledge that could help them-because they often got diseases from their "clients", and together with malnutrition and poor living conditions, many of them died.
While the prostitutes were looked down upon, their "clients" or their former masters etc., who had raped them, were considered "more manly" if they were "experienced". People often turned their blind eye to men, who behaved like this - their wives had to put up with the fact that their husbands were fucking around. They had no other choice, because there were no jobs for women outside their home (for the wealthier women). So, it was impossible for them to leave their husbands, who were the only ones to bring a living. And also, divorce was impossible in catholic France.
Problems with Rose of Versailles
In this part I will tell you, what I found problematic in the story and I will give you some examples and prove them with evidence. What basically is wrong is the character of André Grandier. He is known as Oscar´s companion from the start and later as her "true love". There is a reason, why I put the quotation marks, but I will tell you later. Yes, he was first a side character, but later made into main character alongside Oscar. We all know the "romantic" scene between the two characters in the very end of the story. Everyone who has read or seen Rose of Versailles probably think of him as Oscar´s other half. And that´s what makes the character so important, right. This is Shoujo Manga, a romance and adventure story, and it is more than natural to have two characters falling in love with each other, right?
When I first read Rose of Versailles I thought André to be perfect for Oscar, because he was kind, unselfish, obviously in love and had a good heart, right? Well, I wasn´t the only one, who thought that way. But I was wrong. His character is misleading. Because in the story he is pictured as amazing, and there´s little evidence if any of the true character Ikeda had created. In the following I will go to that, and argue that his character is misleading, the story about his "love" towards Oscar (or to anyone else) is just a lie and that he really is the opposite than the Manga let us think. And sorry about the language beforehand. But this really isn´t anything pretty, so why pretend. I don´t embellish the reality, but merely stating the facts . This is as ugly as it can be. It´s far from romance and love.
I´m not the only one who thought that André was cool, because I´ve read that many people had said that when they read the story when they were children, they thought that André was perfect (those were their exact words). But when they grew up or found "Ikeda´s opinion" ; they noticed that he was exactly the opposite. Ikeda should have clearly stated what kind of a character André is.
So, let´s get into it.
About André:
André with a prostitute
This all started, when I read Ikeda´s "opinion" that André had "experience" with a prostitute. I was shocked and disgust by the fact. You already know my reasoning for that, because I´ve written it above, but beneath I will tell you about the real André. I started to read all the interviews she had given, and found some more evidence of what André really was. So, when I say "Ikeda said" or "her opinion" I mean those words she had said during some interview. And no, there is no direct indication of this in the Manga. But after reading this, you may want to read your Manga again, and this time I´m sure you notice every little hints. For example; Oscar´s maids seemed to look at him that way. So, did he already fucked them?
So, André fucked a prostitute-a poor woman, who had probably been raped and had NO OTHER MEANS OF SURVIVE than becoming a prostitute-and at the same time jeopardise the reputation of Oscar ´s family. Being a servant that behaved unmorally was seen as the master´s fault. Outside the household the servants´ primary role was to convince to the public of their master´s superiority both wealth and moral aspects. Servants were expected to defend their master interests and reputations outside the household. And also, this creates inconsistencies with the Manga, because in reality he would have been thrown out years ago. If Ikeda would have really wanted to have facts there, she would have been written about him thrown out. But now, she takes few "realistic features" here and there, but then continues this unrealistic story about André still there "seeing only Oscar" "so in love" and all the other bulls..t.
So, André saw woman only as a possession- merchandise-that can be bought and used like a shirt. In Utrio´s book she said that buying the "services" of a prostitute wasn´t about gaining "experience" but to buy a living thing-in this case because women weren´t even human as men were, a prostitute was the lowest of them; so André bought a female dog he fucked with. Did he care about her? No.
André suffering?
Someone said he was "suffering". From what exactly? He had a roof over his head, and his own room. In those days many commoner had to share a room with rest of their family-family size being average perhaps 6 to 8 people. He had plenty of food and drink-while some commoners even couldn´t get enough food for themselves. So, they died. André had clothing profited by his master, while other commoners had to use the same clothing for years-even after they were broken. He had education, while some commoners couldn´t even read or write. And his salary was more than average commoner was getting. If he really had loved Oscar, he would have been happy to be with her, to spend time with her.
But no, he suffered from…not "getting" from Oscar? More likely just "not getting enough" And how many times did he "get" from women he didn´t even see? According to Ikeda, he "didn´t even see other women". But he still fucked them?! I will come back to this later.
Yes, I think that André should have waited for Oscar, because I value a man, who can control himself and also the fact is, that with his selfish behaviour he ruined the lives of many women. Also Oscar said she could never sleep with anyone without being in love. I used to like André, but now knowing what Ikeda said, that´s no longer the case. Why did Ikeda say what she said? This is Shoujo Manga, right? Meant for teenage girls? It should be romance/adventure, but obviously the category is wrong. It should have been something else.
I´m personally sorry that this "romance" Manga, the "love story of Oscar and André" isn´t that at all. I don´t think that Ikeda did the right thing, when she created the real André, put him into a story that was meant for teenage girls, and lied that he is a wonderful character, and that the feeling Oscar and André had was romance and love. It is not. Poor Oscar, she must have been a laughingstock among the servants after "giving" to André. She had won…a badass (according to Ikeda he was "no gentleman").
I would have understood if he had fallen in love with somebody and about to get married (so that Oscar would have been his second love), but using a prostitute that was victim already…I don´t understand. Even if Ikeda said he was in love with Oscar, but come on…for me his actions speaks against that. She can say anything, she´s the author. I don´t think that´s love, but rather obsession.
Double standards
But think this; Ikeda is Japanese. I have read various books from western travellers about their experiences in Japan. They all tell the same kind of a story. Here is one; A western traveller told the story of her Japanese friend, who was pregnant when she found out that her husband was cheating on her (I don´t remember was it with a prostitute or with a lover), she got upset and wanted for a divorce. But her mother in law came to her and told her that "it is natural that men do these things and she should just shut up". Then the mother in law accused the woman of embarrassing the family. Can you imagine! She was embarrassing the family, while her husband was fucking around! Men are still the innocent party, as we see in this story (this was real one). Ok, so Japanese women have forced to tolerate their husbands´ unmoral behaviour. Just like in Europe even as late as in the mid 20th century. But I don´t understand that some readers that are western women wouldn´t see this double standard in the story of Rose of Versailles. "It is natural"?! You don´t have to be a feminist to see the contradiction here. There are different rules for men and women. Someone said that no decent woman would even look at André. But most of these prostitutes were raped, and they had no other means of survival than to become prostitutes. So is he/she telling, that only "bad" women get raped? So it´s the victims fault?! I can tell you that it is not. The women were first raped by some piece of shit of men, and in other to live they had to give their bodies to be exploited by same kind of piece of shits -like André. Let me remind you that we´re living in the 21st century, and this Manga is from the 1970s, not from the 18th century. And Ikeda´s comments were made decades after the original Manga was published. I am sad to know that these attitudes still persist today. It´s like Ikeda is trying to brain wash young women to think that these kinds of "men" are wonderful. They´re anything but wonderful. I am personally glad that this Me too-campaign has had huge success worldwide and women are starting to talk about their experiences about rapes, harassment and such. Women are as valuable as men.
Back to the main story.
Eternal love? For Oscar? André kind?
André just couldn´t control himself, and he didn´t care about the women. And his actions could have affected Oscar. But did he care? No! If he had really loved her he would have thought the best for her-even if it meant his suffering. But his actions tell a completely different story. Eventually he even lured Oscar…with the words he probably had been "practicing" (according to Ikeda, whatever that means…) with other women before her. So, he confessed his "undying love" to women? And promised to marry them? (that´s how they do it in South Asia: promise a marriage so that they can mate, and afterwards they abandon the women letting them deal with the consequences all alone) He was lying. But why would he had been "practicing" ? Of course he lied so that he could mate. So, if he was lying to them, what do you think he was all of a sudden telling the truth to Oscar? Logically thinking he said those to her, so that he could fuck her, too.
So, André wasn´t just "a passive young foolish boy with pretty face"(besides, almost every character was pretty; it was Ikeda´s drawing style) as someone had said to me, but rather he was active on his part. It seems he was not only buying fuck, but also he used his words of lies to get what he wanted. Far from innocent. He probably lured the women with promises of faithfulness and love (because that´s what Ikeda said that he had been "practicing"), but as soon as he had "got" from them, he vanished. Then, there is this question: did he have offspring? Hopefully not, because the destiny that waited for unwanted children and their mothers was terrible.
Children born to unmarried mothers were the source of often severe social disadvantages and legal penalties. In a society, where women sought marriage as a source of precarious stability, the marital prospects of unmarried mothers were low. As a result unmarried mothers often became prostitutes or were treated as such. Because of the absence of an effective social welfare system and the low wagespaid to most women ensured that for unmarried women the prostitution was the fate of many. For them, it was the only way to survive. And prostitution almost invariably led to disease, like syphilis. The diseased prostitutes, her hair and teeth lost in often fatal mercury treatments, was a victim of the social and economic circumstances of the age.
But André didn´t care. At all. For him, it was just fun.
The real André
For André, it was first the prostitutes (and they were cheap), then the commoner women, who believed his lies. (by making them "give" him, they lost their reputation and were thrown out of their working places. Then they were forced to turn into prostitutes because no decent employer would hire them ). But that wasn´t enough challenge for him, so he turned towards Oscar. She was a challenge, because she was from the higher class and wouldn´t just so easily being lied to. So, he wanted her. Probable he had been so obsessed with her, because she hadn´t "given" him. Is it the way it works? At least what I have read, these kind of guys do hang around near the woman, who is not willing to "give" and try anything to "get", because it´s either their ability to win the difficult challenge or they are just obsessed with it. That is, until she "gives".
This is what I´ve learned when I was writing an essay about discrimination of women in South Asia. In many books the men told openly of their "conquests" to a researcher. They sweet-talk to women, and afterwards (after "getting") they abandon them, and treat them like dirt. "Sluts" they call them. (I wonder why there isn´t any equivalent word for males, who behave like sluts…)But with a decent woman they really get the challenge. They don´t give up until she had "given". It`s just a play for them.
Someone said that Oscar wasn´t perfect, and that´s true. But I wouldn´t wish this for any woman, that is to be the victim of a "player". Every woman would have deserved something better. No wonder he didn´t marry, because as a commoner he would have had to settle down, probably start a farm in some distant village with not much women, and so he would have had to use only one woman, his wife. But in Paris there was plenty to choose from.
That tells a story of an egoistic man-rather than man in love. He was just obsessed with Oscar. He even tried to kill Oscar, because he couldn´t bare it when she would-legally-be with other man (Oscar had to stay virgin-for him to use), but he himself had been fucking around, and that´s double standards. Oscar would have deserved someone better (and no, Fersen wasn´t much better(maybe a little, since he did not try to kill or rape Oscar). He had many lovers, so he was really a playboy. And I´m sure that every other man had their "experiences" now that I know Ikeda. But I had thought André was different, better than any other…). Yes, André did take the bullet for Oscar, but because he swore he´d some day would give his life for her as she had given hers long time ago. Just a payback time. Or maybe he just got in the way, because he couldn´t see. Besides, he already got what he wanted; he had fucked her, so mission accomplished.
André´s dream of marrying Oscar, and the attempted rape
Ikeda said that André was dreaming of marriage with Oscar, but it was impossible, because of class difference. According to her, his biggest problem was that he belonged to the "wrong" class. It becomes very clear now, why…If he had been noble, which he wanted to be, he could be free to fuck around as much as he pleased. It was because of him being a servant with strict rules to follow (which he didn´t) and was suffering from not "getting enough". Noble men didn´t have those rules. Besides, he could have married Oscar (even against her own will), take her whenever he wanted, because there was no "rape in marriage"-concept at the time. She would have been his-entirely. And he could have taken few lovers aside (and they, too, would have been on his mercy). And then he could even have done the same with their kitchen maids. Would he have cheated on Oscar? Well, he did fuck other women, not even "noticing" them and same time being "in love with Oscar", so it´s highly possible. But Oscar would have been his, and only his.
But since marriage was out of the question, he wanted to take Oscar-by force. (Until now I thought he wouldn´t have gone through it, but now I´m not so sure) André tried to rape Oscar, and by raping her he would have disgraced not only her but her family as well. He would have send her to her misfortune; her father would have forced her marry someone she didn´t want-in order to save himself from lost of reputation.
And about Oscar being "queen´s lesbian lover". I don´t think so. She was raised as a boy and all her life she was told she was a boy/man, and so it is no wonder she was a bit confused. Wearing a man´s clothing doesn´t make anyone a lesbian. Besides, the historians said that queen only had Fersen as her lover, so she wasn´t a lesbian. But we cannot be absolutely certain (what Ikeda really thought). And even if Oscar had been "queen´s lesbian lover", at least they both respected each other, had feelings (whether friendship or something else) towards each other and neither of them was using the other. So, if they had something, it was mutual relationship with feelings and respect. There is nothing wrong with that. There´s nothing wrong being a lesbian or gay (except in those days being a gay was illegal, of course).
My opinion vs. "Ikeda´s opinion"
Someone said I shouldn´t judge André, because "he was a man living in the 18th century". Well, no. He was a fictional character created in the 1970s, when the feminism was already begun. So, Ikeda could have created a man, who really would have been worth the part of the other half of the "romance story" for teenage girls. But no. You may say that "yeah, but Rose of Versailles is based on facts, on reality". Actually, no. Not all the facts were truthful; for example, almost all the characters in the story were good-looking. But in reality how many people are actually that good-looking? Secondly, both Oscar and André were very tall, but in those days people were much shorter. Thirdly, the palace of Versailles was so clean so that you could almost see your image in the floors. In reality the floors were full of dirt, waste and shit (and when I mean shit, I really mean it. There were hardly any toilets, and also the animals [at least pigs] were running around loose. So, both humans and animals did their shit there). And the biggest thing is Oscar herself; there was no way that a woman could be a commander. Women weren´t in the military. So, if you want the reality, Oscar should have been a man. So, if Ikeda bent the truth with some details, why not with André?
Ok, if we were talking about a pervert story for adults, which would have been fine. Because categorized as such, people like me wouldn´t even touch that. But I don´t expect this kind of characters in Shoujo Manga. Or were Americans right after all by saying that Japanese Manga is pervert?
So, the actions of André cannot be justified. Someone said "but he´s so good-looking". And that justifies his actions? Because he is "so good-looking" that he has the right to ruin (yes, ruin) other people´s lives. Oh, sorry…Women weren´t people, at least not full people. I mean ruin because when he lured them into bed with him with his lies and promises and after that left, he left the women to face the problems and hate, and let them into prostitution. To me I don´t cares how people look like, I judge people the way they behave (whether real or fictional). And I do not have any sympathy to a person that ruins people´s lives, no matter how good-looking.
Ikeda could have written André´s "experience" differently (and I don´t understand why he even had to have an "experience"). And also, she should have considered, what she said in those interviews. I´ve never come across with a romance story for teenagers where the main character is pervert. She should have just categorized this story as something else, and also said straight what kind of character she had created in the story itself.
Would it had been too hard to write a story about André, when 18, met a commoner woman, they fell in love and were about to get married? And then they had the "experience", but before the wedding she had died (disease? accident?) and he would still had stayed at de Jarjayes manor? At least that would have proven that he had a heart. But no, she couldn´t write that. She had to create a bad guy, who is just a women-user obsessed with Oscar. That statement really ruined my picture of André-for good. It was the story of Oscar and André that I started to like this series, but now…Ikeda really uses bad persons as her main characters, I´ve realized that now. But is this kind of a perverted selfish women-user really appropriate for a "romance story" for teenage girls? I don´t think so.
But we do have a freedom to create stories and characters as we like to, so it´s her right. But I am using my right not to read that kind of story.
Conclusions
Ikeda´s description of André in the Manga differs from the André of her "opinions". We are all different people, and the way the Manga story is written, there are many ways to interpret the character. I admit, I interpreted it in the wrong way, put I´m not the only one. It is because of that misinterpretation that let me to start to read the story and even like it. And that´s why I was shocked, when I found out the truth. The ugly truth. I have wasted my time for nothing. What I think is that Ikeda should have written the story, so that there wouldn´t been any misinterpretations. That´s one thing.
The other thing is the categorization of this kind of Manga. This isn´t really (for my opinion) good for teenage girls, who are looking for a romance story. André is far from romantic character. He is disgusting, self-centred character, which one may expect to find in some pervert or other story full with criminals and bad guys.
And why couldn´t Ikeda create a character that really was good? She can´t? Too difficult?
Maybe I was a bit too harsh, but I was shocked with this information, and I wanted to make a point that I do not understand this kind of "love" and behaviour. And also I wanted to point out, that there were problems, such as the double standards and the culture that saw women as something less than men. This is all my fault, because I was expecting far too much from the author. I was expecting a true love story. But what did I get? A guy whose world revolved around his dick. Just another playboy. Besides, I don´t think this kind of character is appropriate being in the story for teenage girls.
This is my opinion-you may have some other opinion and I appreciate that. We are all different. But I don´t want to have anything to do with the series anymore. I have thrown the series into the trash bin-where it belongs to, and instead I will now focus on my studies and hopefully start my career as a researcher of woman´s history. The ones who had been silenced for centuries…
And I want to thank you for being patient with me. This isn´t an easy subject.
You can ask yourself of what kind of future would Oscar have with him. We know his past now: He cannot control himself and cannot take any responsibility of his own actions. He broke the rules when he was working as a servant. He didn´t care about his job nor his employees nor their reputations. He didn´t care shit about the lives of people he had ruined. He didn´t show any regret of his wrongdoings nor he even thought he was doing anything wrong. He was self-centred bastard, who could kill Oscar if she had been with somebody else. At the same time he could do whatever he pleased. He lied.
I know that people can change, but not this much. If he had been treating women like cattle for many many years, why would he suddenly change? This type of guys have that attitude deep inside them and they will continue behaving like that even after they´re married. He couldn´t be loyal nor think of anybody but himself. What if Oscar said "I´m not in the mood"? Would he raped her? Or would he fuck the nearest woman available? What if Oscar befriended with another man? Would he try to kill her in his rage? "You are mine, and only I can use you"?
I know for sure that Oscar´s life with him would be a living hell. She would have to put up with his fuckings (and I´m sure her heart would break many times), and at the same time be careful that she doesn´t appear too close with any other man.
She would be a laughingstock; if they never married, she would be called "slut", because she had "given" him. If they married, she would be stuck with him in the lousy marriage (no divorce possible). Even worse, if she got pregnant (hopefully not), because now she would be all alone taking care of a child (if not married the child would be a bastard, and that would make their living bad. Where would she find work? No one would hire a "slut"). If married, she would have to make excuses, when the child would ask "where´s father? Why isn´t he here reading me bedtime story?", what would she say? He´s busy fucking someone?)
He´s not suitable to any serious relationship, nor can he be loyal. Let alone he´s not fit to be a parent. What would he tell his son? "Women are like cattle and you can use them as you please?"
He would really had to regret all the bad things he had done over the years to a lot of people, he should pay for what he had done. And hopefully he doesn´t have any bastard children. (Most of the cases the unwanted children would have a short and awful life). If so, he would have to pay for their living.
And still I wouldn´t trust him; he´s a piece of shit that think he can use women like old shirts, without any consequences for himself. He is not going to change that much, and suddenly become a good guy. Poor Oscar (poor any woman, who are stuck with a guy like that). I wish she never had "given" him. Because now he ruined her, too. Worst scenario, ever. The researchers today say that these guys, who fuck around without considering anybody but themselves, are most likely to cheat…
So, like I said, this isn´t a love story at all, but more or less of a story of Oscar falling into his trap and losing her innocence. No wonder that Ikeda killed them both after that, because it wouldn´t end well.
Disgusting.