(AN) I had this huge argument with someone on Deviantart a while back over Piper being a Mary Sue...but it ended up sort of turning into a fight about Jason and the others too...kinda...but it mainly focused on Piper...so I wanted to put it on here...tell me what you think...if my argument was...er...logical...Layla here is me by the way...
Layla POV
I was sitting on my laptop in my bedroom, I was looking at pictures from one of the books I just finished, and I saw a comment on a picture...and I got mad...
See I've been reading the Percy Jackson and the Olympians Series and I just finished Mark of Athena from his second series.
Oh the joys of being an Ekat...we can sit on the computer all day and act like we're figuring out ne equasions and all that...
When really the majority of us just sit and look at stupid pictures and watch cat videos...
I wonder what this generation has come to sometimes...
But it started like this
I was sitting on the computer the other day when I saw this...
Her: imsecretlyhopingpiperdiesinhouseofhadesimsorryireallyhateher
I was a little annoyed but I wanted tpo find out her reason so I replied to her, just trying to be a little friendly even though we have opposing views...
Me: I love Reyna's character, but I like Piper better for Jason. I love Piper so much, as well as Reyna is an amazing, beautiful character, I just think that Piper and Jason make an awesome couple.
And then it turned into this argument...
Her: To me, Piper just has no depth. She's just this "stunning" girl who has such a classic sob story. Her dad was captured, pretty girl goes on quest to find her, pretty girl blames herself for everything, pretty girl has great powers, pretty girl gets cool weapon, pretty girl becomes head counselor, pretty girl gets pretty boyfriend.. Their entire relationship is based on looks. The only thing they say about eachother? "She's so goodlooking". "He's gorgeous". To be fair, Jason doesn't have much development either, so I guess pairing the two Mary Sues/Gary Stus together can make sense.
I was a little annoyed at how little she looked into Piper's story and such...and how she dissed Jason even though he's kind of like Percy's twin...just a little different and by this point WE BARELY KNEW THEM so I replied, a little angrily I'll admit...
Me: Well, if you see it that way you've got to understand that Jason is like a blonde, slightly shyer, Roman Percy. Heroic? Yes and Yes, loves his friends? Yes and yes, and your views on Piper you can think all you want I'll just give you what I think about her.
I like Piper because of her personality, she actually acts a lot like me in some ways. Our family isn't rich, that's for sure, and plenty of people are pretty without trying, she doesn't get all the guys, Percy's still with Annabeth, Travis still likes Katie, Nico didn't seem to take much interest in her, and LEO? He hits on every girl he sees, but wouldn't do it to Piper. She breaks the Aphrodite kid stereotypes, but she's still Aphrodite's daughter, so she's still pretty, Aphrodite isn't going to just *POOF* make her ugly because she doesn't like pink. She cares about more than her relationship with Jason, Percy and Annabeth are falling to their deaths right now and do you really think she's only thinking about Jason right now? Probably NOT...
She was so insecure at the beginning, she didn't think she was pretty, she didn't like herself at all, so she was struggling with the whole, Jason lost his memory thingamadoohicky. She get's scared, she's gets lonely, just like a real person, and like all people, she has lots of flaws, even the whole insecure thing. Now, people really should stop fighting over Piper, because I KNOW, there is no way to change someone's opinion on something, on the internet. Yes her dad was captured, just because that happened doesn't mean that its a "classic sob story" Piper has more depth than lots of other characters, the's got a great personality, of course she blamed herself SHE WAS PARTLY AT FAULT! The giants were using her! Yes she has powers, EVERY DEMIGOD HAS POWERS besides the Athena campers. Jasons cute? So what? She deserves him and he deserves her. Jason's said other things about Piper besides "Good Looking." He's called her sweet, and said she had a great personality. I tend to judge characters before actually getting to now them so I read the books again. I didn't really like Jason at first but the second time around I realized what character and what a great personality he had and discovered how much I liked him, and how much he reminded me of Percy.
Heh...kind of a bad move on my part I guess as comparing Percy and Jason is never a good idea...heh...she realized that and replied to me with another long comment...that I had an argument for on everything...
Her: See, that's why I hate Jason. Rick basically decided, "Hmm, people love Percy, so let me just make another Percy, but with different hair/skin/eye color! Perrrr-fect!". You really can't deny that Jason is a lot like Percy, but with less depth and personality. Back to Piper.
Almost every character has mentioned that, "Piper is gorgeous", "Piper is stunning", "She doesn't know how beautiful she is", etc etc etc, right? She gets told constantly that she's beautiful and breathtaking, but pretty little Piper, gorgeous and innocent little Piper, doesn't believe it. All the characters love her because she's just not a regular daughter of Aphrodite.
Annabeth *hates* daughters of Aphrodite. Rachel, Percy, Thalia, Grover, and almost everyone else hate daughters of Aphrodite. But not Piper! Because Piper is just oh-so-special! Piper is so cool with her powers that are rare, an awesome weapon, and she's just so gorgeous! In MOA, Piper was probably the least concerned.. Leo was the one, w/o a moment's hesitation, who said they need to find them. (I think. I need to reread before HOH comes out).
Yeah, she was insecure at the beginning. That, I understand, because most girls, like myself, are. Then she finds out she's a daughter of Aphrodite, okay? But she still doesn't think she's pretty. Being insecure as a daughter of Aphrodite is a bogus flaw.
Piper has no depth. Even Rachel has more depth, and she's a minor character. I'd even go as far as to say that Octavian has more depth. Octavian was the 'villain' and people like him more than Piper. She has no personality whatsoever. She's never made me laugh, made me feel sad, etc, she just made me angry to the point I had to put down my book and vent about her.
Not every daughter of Aphrodite has powers, mind you. A lot of Demigods don't. Dionysus, Hermes, Athena, even Hephaestus, their kids have never really been 'proven' to have powers. Charmspeak is a *rare* ability. Piper is so rad, she gets that *rare* ability. She's even more rad by being able to not be a victim to other charmspeakers.
You like Jason because he /is/ Percy. He's immediately introduced as being a hero. Just like Percy. The different between them is personality/depth and looks. Percy has personality and depth;; Jason doesn't. Jason is blonde;; Percy's not.
But, overall, why is Piper a marysue?
*She's not the stereotypical daughter of Aphrodite. That's usually the first warning sign she's a Mary Sue.
*Everyone, except for the major villains, loves her.
*She's going out with the other Gary Stu of the book, Jason, the gorgeous and powerful demigod.
*Even Reyna, Annabeth, and other people who have a reason to hate her love her.
*****Rare***** powers.
*A rare and amazing weapon.
*She comes from a rich family, but only sees the downside to it. "My daddy's rich but idgaf I'm gonna do whatever it takes to get his attention!"
*Still insecure, even after being told 495349853847593495438x she's gorgeous.
*Her mother pays extra special attention to her.
And more and more and more..
My opinion has been changed by the Internet. I used to like Piper, then I came across a post about how Piper is a mary-sue. I reread the book and took notice to those things. She's a mary sue.
So...I was a little annoyed that she sees none of the good character qualities in Piper...
Me: I see what you're saying, but, the3 reason Annabeth likes her is because she isn't like all the other Aphrodite kids, plus, Annabeth never said she hated Aphrodite camper, she just said they were a little annoying. I see what you're saying about her being insecure too, she doesn't necessarily (I use this word way to often...but I use it correctly at least ) think that she ISN'T pretty, she just doesn't think she's as pretty as other girls.
*And I don't understand how, not being stereotypical makes you a Mary Sue, I mean, seriously? That doesn't even make any sense.
*Not everyone loves her, Drew hates her, Octavian hates her, Reyna doesn't like her too much, lots of characters aren't fond of her.
*Again with the Jason thing? Seriously? Okay, Percy's gorgeous and powerful, and HE'S not a Gary-Stu. Plus, the reason he doesn't have as much depth is because we've known Percy for eight (almost nine) books, as Jason's only been in two, The PJaO books were all in Percy's point of view, whereas these books are in third person, making it a little harder to tell what the characters are thinking.
*Annabeth has no reason to hate her, and Reyna didn't love her at all, she didn't HATE her but she didn't like her either.
*Her powers are not necessarily ***Rare*** Drew has them does she not?
*If I came from I rich family and my father was off all the time and had some clerk taking care of his only child I wouldn't be happy about it either, I probably wouldn't go to the extremes that Piper did, but I'd do my best to get his attention.
*I'm insecure, people tell me all the time, "Your hair is amazing, your eyes are so brown (someone actually said this and I just looked at them like Thanks?)" but that doesn't mean I can't be insecure.
*Well, yeah, she was sort of born to save the world and whatnot.
Wow, If your opinion has been changed THAT much...woah, someone must have been really good at pointing out non-existent flaws in awesome characters...I gotta find whatever you saw and see if it changes my mind.
If you can't tell...I wasn't very happy...heh...and I was kind of being a little reckless with how I worded things...DON'T JUDGE ME! But by this point I noticed that she was pretty much using the exact same arguments...and I was only giving her my arguments against hers...
Her: * In books at least, this is usually a big warning sign. The author has repeatedly told us that *all* children of Aphrodite are stuckup and full of themselves. Enter Piper, the gorgeous main character who is the exact opposite. I find that a big Mary Sue flaw.
*Those are obvious villains. Octavian is a 'villain'. Drew is a 'villain'. Everyone else just loves her.
*Percy isn't a Gary Stu. He has flaws. Jason doesn't. Even after The Lightning Thief, we realized that Percy does has flaws. The only thing 'wrong' with Jason is that he had his memory taken. Nobody's ever really said Percy's 'gorgeous' either, really.
*Annabeth is typically very skeptical of new campers. She was skeptical of Leo and Jason, and even Percy. But noo, Annabeth was wishing that Piper was a daughter of Athena so they could be sisters. Reyna didn't like her, but she was acting professional, seeing as, y'know, she's the leader. Piper stole her only friend, and perhaps her future boyfriend.
*See, the thing about Drew.. Nobody knows why she was created. She's just a classic meangirl, created to make Piper sparkle even more, because wowie, Piper stood up to the mean girl nobody else could! Only Piper and Drew are the known demigods with the ability, but Piper's is a lot more powerful.
*Piper made it a point that, "No, I don't want designer clothes," "No, I don't want your food," "Nope noe noep noep enoepe neoonononononono". If my dad was rich, I wouldn't be turning down those things.
*But Piper is a daughter of Aphrodite, and literally every child of Aphrodite is beautiful. She's told she's beautiful everyday, people are jealous of her, people love her, etc etc etc..
*Silena wasn't given special attention. She was frowned upon because she didn't want to break anyone's heart. Piper doesn't want to break anyone's heart either, and Aphrodite just loves her. Silena saved the world in her own way, and she received absolutely no attention, and she was basically just forgotten.
By this point I wanted to freaking virtually slap her...NONE OF THIS IS TRUE! Well...mostly...a few things were just taken a little far...
Me: *Well DUH! If she was a classic Aphrodite girl she wouldn't be interesting, and he never says that they're all stuck up and full of themselves, if he did then how the Hades do you explain Lacy?
* Is Reyna a villain? No, no she isn't, but she doesn't like her, Clarisse didn't really like her either, but everyone else likes her because she's a generally nice person, everyone likes Percy, except for maybe Octavian and Clarisse, most people like Annabeth and Leo and Grover too, this is not a Mary Sue trait, if it was all of these characters would be slightly Mary-Sue as well.
*I never said Percy was a Gary Stu, he has plenty of flaws but so does Jason, he gets angry somewhat easily he's just figured out how to hold it down, as have I, I get angry way too easily...Jason is loyal, so is Percy, I know what you're saying about him copying off of Percy, but I don't think it was because he knew everyone loved Percy, he knows his readers are smart enough to realize that Jason is Percy. I think he did it that way for a reason, I'm not sure exactly what that reason is yet but I have a feeling it'll come out in one of the next books. And I never said anyone ever said that in the books, I just know...heeheehee...I'm a little crazy when it comes to fangirling...
*Yes, I've noticed that, but she liked Piper, Jason, and Leo, and she wasn't really skeptical of Leo, he was just annoying to her. She was skeptical of Jason because she though he would be Percy, so when he wasn't she got really angry and annoyed, she didn't WANT Piper to be a daughter of Athena she just figured that she would be and said the thought that would be cool because Piper seemed like a cool person to be sisters with.
*Drew was created so that Rick would be able to add some more storyline to the book. She was created so that Piper wouldn't seem irrelevant in the story. Plus, everyone else was, first of all afraid of her and Piper didn't know her too well, also, Drew had charmspeak, she could make the others do what she wanted. Piper stood up to her because she was immune to the charmspeak, now, this part of the storyline I will admit I slightly find Mary-Sue-like but that's really the only part of this that I actually agree with, and that's pretty much it.
*I understand what you mean by that, but you have to take in mind the fact that Piper didn't like attention, which she believed designer clothes would give her, she wanted to do her best to keep from drawing attention to herself,l if I was like her, I'd probably get the clothing and things, but my personality is not like hers is, I don't like attention, but I wouldn't go out of my way to avoid it.
*Again with that? Really? Zeus! You're persistent. Like I said, she thought everyone was being nice, plus, I never said she didn't think she was pretty, I said she didn't think she was REALLY pretty. She spent her entire life feeling insecure and unimportant, which is a hard frame of mind to get out of, also, no one has ever said they were jealous of her, and yes, people love her, people love Hazel, Annabeth, and Percy too, they're friends, duh!
*SELINA WASN'T THE MAIN CHARACTER OF THE PJaO SERIES! She was given sufficient attention after what happened, but the entire series was about Percy Jackson, not Silena Beauregard, so giving her a huge ceremony and a huge amount of attention would be off topic, plus, if that happened people would probably be complaining that SHE was a Mary Sue too. Also, if you remember, Piper made sure that the Aphrodite cabin realized that Silena was a hero, not a traitor.
Now, I'm done arguing about this, 'cause you're obviously not going to shut up and realize that both of us are right. I'm going to agree to disagree and just stop talking to you before I throw my laptop across the room because you're irritating the Hades out of me with these arguments that you are really just repeating over and over just using different words.
She...didn't...freaking...care...
Her: lolok youre an idiot.
bottom line is;; piper is an irrelevant mary sue. if she wasnt in the books, the team would literally be unchanged. she does nothing except sit around and braid feathers into her hair. [:
I was mad...I'm not an idiot...most of the time...
Me: You can believe what you want to believe, but I am not an idiot. I am reading three years above my grade level, doing schoolwork for a class or two above me, and whenever someone tries to insult me, like you are trying to do, I take it graciously and don't insult them back. It's of no use to be mean to someone who is being mean to you because it's just going to go on and on, so, in other words, drop this stupid, idiotic subject and leave me alone.
I screamed...seriously...she just kept replying...
Her: Someone's a wee bit full of themselves, hm? Your little "arguments" were literally repeating the same thing. I truly apologize for having a different opinion than you, hon. Three years "above your grade level", is really not that big, aha. I was reading on about a 9th grade level when I was in 4th grade. I truly admire the lies you tell too make yourself appear more intelligent, though! (: /isn't going to respond anymore. I have more important things to do than argue about some Mary Sue you worship./
*coughs* Excuse me? YOU WERE DOING THE SAME THING YOU IDIOT! And I'm full of myself...seriously...I take compliments like someone just said, "You're hair doesn't look like rat dung today!"
Me: Would you just shut up? You called me an idiot, I told you why I was not, I said I'm done with this stupid argument and that means I'm done, you're the person who decided to respond when I said to leave me alone, so please, shut your mouth, I'm done...
SHE FINALLY STOPPED AFTER THAT!1
Aaaand a word of my supporters...
Star-Bite:
1) No offence but,Piper Mclean is not a Mary-sue!
2) Jason flaws
Insensitive
Prideful
arrogant
overly reserved
overly obedient
not a risk taker
Jason Grace isn't flawless nor is Piper
Sources from Cassjaytuck
Jason and Percy share SOME of those flaws too. Both characters are a lot alike and are awesome!
I wanted to hug this person when she mentioned CassJayTuck...
I watch her all the time on youtube...
QuothTheLlama: I think you're a bit full of yourself too, Hun. In fifth grade I was reading at a college level, and I don't think Piper is a Mary Sue at all. Sure, she might be less well developed and a little more Sue-ish than Rick's other characters, but I rather like her and many people do. It doesn't mean people worship her.
Heehee...I wanted to hug this person too...
Okay, so...in other words, I had too much time on my hands but...I just really felt like I had to defend her...so I did...
Wait...why am I talking to myself...?
(AN) Yeah...this was really weird...hope you liked it! But I swear, if I get one comment against Piper I'm going to scream...and then erase it...