Author's notes:

As always, I don't own Glee or any of the songs/movies/television shows/things referenced.

Rating is for language and eventual sexual content.

Approximate words this chapter: 4,200

Dave at Thurston, Part 7

"Hey, Gretchen," Sean greeted into his phone.

"Hey, Sean. What's going on?"

"Not a lot. Cleaning up after the party."

"How'd it go after we left?"

"Uh...it was okay. It was a little weird for a while. Howie had more to drink before I cut him off. He crashed at my house because there was no way he was gonna drive in that condition, and the car situation would have been a hassle if someone drove him home. Needless to say, he's nursing a wicked hangover today. He earned every bit of it last night, though." Sean paused. "Everything got weird after Dave went off on Howie."

"Yeah, I could have guessed that's why it got weird."

"It was just so unexpected, and he was so intense about it. Maybe weird isn't the right word. We went from having fun to just kinda sitting there doing nothing. A couple of people did show up later, though, and that brought the mood back up."

"Oh yeah? Who came?"

"Tammy and Teresa. I told them about the party about mid-week, and they just surprised us. Anyway, Gretch, Dave's going off on Howie really did kinda freak us all out. We all like Dave, like a lot, and Howie feels really bad about causing Dave to flip out like that and leave so early."

"Dave's a sweetheart in a lot of ways, Sean, but the more I get to know Dave, the more I realize that there's a lot going on in his head. He's complex beyond any first impressions I had about him." Gretchen paused. "I mean, that's part of what makes him amazing, but he seems a little damaged on some level. I can almost guarantee that he's going to be back to 'quiet Dave' on Monday."

"What do you mean, Gretch?"

"Like the Dave that doesn't talk or hang with anyone."

"You like him, don't you, Gretch?"

"If you mean 'friend-like' him, yeah. If you mean 'boyfriend-like' him, no."

"Really?" Sean was surprised.

"Sean, you've known me how long? We've been great friends for, what, three years now? When have you ever known me to be boyfriend-centric?"

"Yeah, well, that's true: never."

"Here's the deal. He says he's trying to focus on his schoolwork and grades and avoid melodramatics, and I respect that about him. He gets annoyed when people assume that we're an item. He seems almost overly conscious of that when we're together, even. He's never been physical with me at all beyond the way friends relate to each other. He's a perfect gentleman. Having said all that, he's incredibly smart, and he has this depth of character that I think I've only glimpsed, but what I have seen has kinda blown me away. If I was looking for a boyfriend, he might be the man of my dreams."

"You do think he's cute, though," Sean said with an audible snicker in his voice.

"I do. He's the most unlikely guy I have ever thought was cute, I might add. His character trumps his cuteness, though. He could be hideous with that same personality and might still be the man of my dreams."

"You two would make an awesome couple. I'm hoping it happens, Gretch."

"Why? Like I said, I'm not especially looking, and we know he's not looking."

"I dunno." Sean paused, thinking. "It would be great if these two good friends of mine were an item, that's all. No reason other than that. I think you're both amazing people, and you get along well together. You'd be my favorite couple ever: big, friendly Dave who has this hidden wicked-smart side to him as well as a genuinely scary-streak and cute, little, belligerently-nonconformist Gretchen who is a genius artist and devours her victims with a smile."

"Y'know, Dave would get a kick out of what you just said if it wasn't tied to the idea of us being a 'couple'. I will say that we had a good time at the Homecoming Dance, and it would be cool to have him around to do 'couples'-kinda things, and I enjoy mocking other people in the cafeteria with him because he gets my humor and I get his." Gretchen pauses. "How the fuck can a guy who looks like him get my humor, damn it?"

"It really doesn't bother you to be friends and only friends with the guy?"

"Not at all. I'm too independent to lose sleep over that one, and I'll bet Dave is also."

"Well, I'm pretty sure Howie is going to apologize to Dave tomorrow," Sean predicted. "He's bummed out because he thinks Dave is a great guy. The fact that, if he got Dave mad enough, Dave could very-well flatten him if he wanted to doesn't really figure into this. Howie is too accustomed to being the target of jocks; taking a beating is pretty-much second-nature to him. He's just bummed that he pissed Dave off."

"I'm gonna give Dave a call after I get off the phone with you. See what kinda damage-control I can accomplish. We talked a little last night after we left the party."

"What about?"

"Mostly the reasons behind why Howie's comment bothered him. Well, it started that way."

"Where did it end?"

"Mostly guilt-feelings about some stuff at his old school. I wouldn't really feel right getting into specifics here, though; save to say that Dave's a thinker, and he might be over-thinking stuff. Actually, he was pretty into seeing my mom's art studio also. I almost forgot about that part."

A short span of silence passed. "Hey, Gretch, I'm gonna get going," Sean said finally. "Folks will be in later this afternoon, and I gotta make it looked like I didn't have a party last night."

"Okay. Do you need me to come over and help you clean up?"

"No, but thanks. Really not much of a mess. Just gotta get rid of the empties and vacuum. We kept everything contained to the basement, so it's pretty-much a one-man job."

"Alright, then, see you in school tomorrow, Sean."

"Yep, have a good rest-of-the-day, Gretch. Bye."

"Goodbye, Sean"

Gretchen ended the call with Sean, found Dave on her contacts list, and tapped the call icon. She heard the ring on the other end: once, twice, three times; she lost count by the time she heard a recorded voice: You've reached the voicemail of Dave Karofsky, you lucky dog. Leave a message and I'll return your call when I can. Later.

Gretchen grinned wide at the message. "Hey, Dave. It's Gretchen, just calling to see what you're up to today. I owe you a thump to the noggin for referring to me as a 'lucky dog' on your outgoing message, so be ready for that. You can give me a call back or, if you don't, I'll just catch you tomorrow at school. Smooches."

Online chat, Sunday October 16

comradeK: hello. thank you for responding to my ad.

rogeroh: You're welcome. Did many people respond?

comradeK: i got several responses. most of them weren't serious. some of them were kinda graphic and creeped me out. some of them were mean-spirited. you and maybe three others seemed like serious responses.

rogeroh: It's good that you did get some serious responses, although I'd think there are other places you might have thought to look for help on this matter.

comradeK: i know there are, but i am uncomfortable about doing anything like this publicly. the local branch of osu has monthly pflag meetings, but i'm honestly afraid to be seen going to them.

rogeroh: I don't know what help I could be then. You said that you wanted help with coming out, but you sound like you're very afraid to actually be out.

comradeK: i thought maybe just chatting with some people about their experiences might help me get to a point where i could take the next step and be more public.

rogeroh: I understand. I am a lot older than you are, though. Things are very different now than they were when I was your age. My name is Roger, btw.

comradeK: dave here. nice to meet you, roger. how old are you?

rogeroh: I'm 66.

comradeK: i'm sure a lot has changed. that doesn't make my situation any easier from where i stand, tho.

rogeroh: I'm not going to be the bitter old man and say that things were so much harder for me and things are so much easier for your generation. This conversation wouldn't be happening if this was easy. You won't need to deal with some of the things I dealt with, but there may be some things that you deal with that would make it harder for you that I never had to deal with. I don't think the prejudices will ever go away fully.

comradeK: so, tell me about your experience, if you don't mind.

rogeroh: If my story can help anyone, I'll gladly tell it. I grew up in the 1950s. Generally, it was considered to be a very liberating time with sweeping changes in culture which would come to fruition in the 1960s and 70s. Homosexuality, though, was considered to be a disorder at the time. My parents became concerned about me when I was about ten years old.

comradeK: why is that?

rogeroh: I wasn't the most masculine kid. I was quiet, and most of my friends were girls. I didn't play with other boys much after school. I did have some good male friends in school, but, while they were all out doing "boy things" like playing ball, I was more interested in reading and writing. So, my parents signed me up for various "boy" activities like youth baseball leagues and scouts. I still didn't make any real friends and I wasn't athletically-inclined so it failed on both fronts. I was a good student, though, especially in English, because I read a great deal and wrote well.

comradeK: you do write very well if this chat is any indication.

rogeroh: Thank you, Dave. At any rate, my parents were concerned and took me to a psychiatrist when I was fourteen. They put me through a battery of psychological exams of all sorts and came to the conclusion that I was likely to have homsexual tendencies. Under the doctor's guidance, my parents forbade me to see or associate with my female friends. They were about the only real friends I had outside of school. My parents made friends with other boys' parents and tried to get me involved in being more social with boys and doing more "boy things". That didn't work either. The boys didn't really like me and were sometimes abusive with me.

comradeK: how do you mean?

rogeroh: Well, one example, one of the parents had organized a day when we all went out to a local park with our bicycles one Sunday morning. One of the other kids, one who was much bigger than me, took my bike from me. When confronted, his friends backed up his story saying that it was his bike all along, and the parents who organized the event believed him and the other boys. I returned home without my bike and told my parents what happened, and they reprimanded me for letting it happen, for not being "man enough" to prevent it from happening.

comradeK: that's terrible.

rogeroh: That's just one example. At any rate, when I was 16, my parents came to the conclusion that none of the "remedies" they were using was working, so they signed for me to undergo electroshock.

comradeK: that was pretty standard back in the 50s.

rogeroh: Years later, I'd meet other men who underwent the same thing when they were my age.

comradeK: so, when exactly did you come out? or aren't you out?

rogeroh: As far as the rest of the world was concerned, I was out when I was twelve. I began identifying myself as "gay" when I was in college. That wasn't easy either. I would be assaulted on a fairly regular basis if I was seen coming from a gay bar late at night.

comradeK: you could get into the bars?

rogeroh: The drinking age was 18 back then.

comradeK: where did you go to college?

rogeroh: Case Western in Cleveland.

comradeK: are you originally from lima?

rogeroh: Yes, I lived in Cleveland for some years after I graduated. It was the late 60s by then.

comradeK: so, you were out at that point?

rogeroh: We really didn't call it "out" back in those days. It was something that people knew and understood about me, but it wasn't something that any of us advertised. There were famous and important authors, artists, and musicians that everybody knew were gay, but you'd never hear that word used. In fact, there were times when a famous gay person successfully sued people in the news media for referring to them as gay in print. Things have come a long way, really.

comradeK: i can see that. i did some research over the last summer.

rogeroh: By the late 70s, you began to see it more and more in the media. Some people identified themselves as gay in public and the media. The 80s may have taken a step backward, but the 90s saw gays being allowed to serve in the military under DADT and many celebrities coming out publicly. The idea of being out was becoming to be seen as beneficial to the community. The more the public saw that being gay was not a lifestyle choice but an inseparable quality of each individual, the more tolerant they became.

comradeK: but, then, most people believe DADT to be a failed policy, right?

rogeroh: I don't! Absolutely not! Before DADT, gays were not allowed in the military at all. At worst, it was meant to be a temporary measure until such a time came when serving openly would be tolerated. That time has arrived, and DADT was repealed, but until that time came, it opened up avenues which were previously unavailable to gay individuals.

comradeK: i see. i hadn't considered that.

rogeroh: That's something which might only occur to someone with the perspective that living through several decades has given them.

comradeK: you live in lima now, i take it?

rogeroh: Yes, I returned to Lima back in the 1990s when my dad got sick. I wanted to be close to my parents. They were getting old, and I wasn't getting any younger. Eventually, I ended up taking care of my mother once my dad passed away.

comradeK: did you have a partner?

rogeroh: I had a couple of different partners at different times. Since I have been back in Lima, no, I haven't had any partners. I have several great friends, though.

There was a long pause.

rogeroh: Are you still there, Dave?

comradeK: yes, still here, sorry. just thinking about what I want to say.

Another pause.

comradeK: so, where do you associate with other gay men in lima?

rogeroh: Oh, the friends I have get together once in a while for dinners and parties. Nothing too crazy, not at our age.

comradeK: do you go onto greggslist often?

rogeroh: I'd be lying if I said I didn't, but I usually just look at the pictures.

comradeK: and i'd be lying if i said the pictures didn't kinda creep me out sometimes.

rogeroh: Sometimes I go out at Scandals. I have a few friends who are regulars there.

comradeK: what's scandals?

rogeroh: It's a gay bar in West Lima. It's gone through several owners, remodelings, and name-changes over the years, but it's always been there in one form or another. I never knew about it until I returned to Lima in the 1990s. Apparently, it was there even before I was born. At that time and probably through the 1980s, it was an unmarked building with no sign. A passerby would not have even known it was a bar. Gay bars of past decades were intentionally inconspicuous that way. The last thing they wanted was attention.

comradeK: i had no idea that there was such a place in lima.

rogeroh: I don't go there often. Sometimes I just want to get out of the house, and if my friends are busy or not around, I'll stop in for a couple of drinks. I almost always run into an old acquaintance.

comradeK: when you came back to lima, did your parents know you were gay at that time?

rogeroh: I can't imagine them not knowing. I never told them in so many words, but I'm sure it's one of those unspoken things which they understood on some level. Now, dad has passed on and mom, though healthy, is quite old. I can't see a point in bringing it up now, honestly.

comradeK: from some things i've read, there are people who would disagree with you.

rogeroh: Well, they're not me.

There was a long pause again.

rogeroh: Can you tell me something about yourself, Dave?

Another pause.

comradeK: sure. what do you want to know?

rogeroh: Well, I know from the ad you placed that you're eighteen years old. Other than that, I know nothing about you. Like, what kinds of things are you interested in? What kind of guy are you? Things like that.

comradeK: well, i am a high school student in my senior year, i'm on the football team, though the season ended a couple of days ago, i love sports of all kinds, especially football and hockey, i have an eclectic group of friends, mostly smart kids, i plan to go to college for something math/science related, i'm not out to my parents or anyone really. anything else you'd like to know?

rogeroh: That's about what I had in mind. Are you kind-of athletic then?

comradeK: yes, you could say that. my friends are diverse, but, until this last year, most of my friends were guys on the teams i was on. i'm happier since i expanded my group of friends.

rogeroh: I'd imagine that spending time with the football team members might have not been terribly conducive to your own understanding of yourself.

comradeK: it wasn't. it was kinda messing me up. i still have work to do, but i've come a long way since last spring.

rogeroh: Do you know anyone who is out?

comradeK: there was this one guy at my old school. he was my age. and there was a guy that he used to hang around with.

rogeroh: Did you ever talk with either of them about coming out?

comradeK: only what they would kinda force on me. i really wasn't ready for that at the time.

rogeroh: They knew then? You came out to them?

comradeK: oh, i forgot about that before when i said that i wasn't out to anyone. it's a weird thing, the way they came to know. i kinda revealed myself to one of them, and he told the other. it made the rest of my time at that school somewhat difficult for me. speaking of, I really should get to my school work. thank you for chatting with me, roger.

rogeroh: You are most welcome. I hope this chat has done you some good, Dave. You can email me any time if you want to talk or have a question or simply want to say hello.

comradeK: thank you again, roger. have a good day.

rogeroh: You do the same, Dave. Goodbye.

Gretchen's phone sounded a text notification.

Dave: Hey, sorry I haven't had the chance to call, but I did get your message. 8:52 PM

Gretchen: No problem. Busy day? 8:55 PM

Dave: Some school work, spending time with the parents. That's about all. 8:57 PM

Gretchen: Can I call? 8:58 PM

Dave: Sure. 8:58 PM

Dave's phone rang within thirty seconds after he tapped the button to send his last text message. "Hi, Gretchen," Dave sounded cheerful and pleasant.

"Hey, Dave. You sound enthusiastic."

"It's always good to hear from you, whether I sound like it or not."

"Oh, yeah?" Gretchen teased. "I talked to Sean earlier."

"Oh, yeah?" Dave's version sounding quieter and more wary than Gretchen's. "How'd that go?"

"They're really bummed that you left the party early last night. Howie especially."

"I'm bummed too. Maybe I overreacted, but I can't apologize to Howie for what I said."

"Dave, none of them are expecting that you apologize to anyone. They really like having you as a friend; and you know what's really amazing? You've stuck your neck out for a few of them, and they don't even know about most of that stuff."

"Yeah, I know. That's kinda how I want it."

"I know. That's why I never told Howie about how you saved him from getting saturated with root beer. He likes you regardless, no, clueless of the fact that you've been covertly watching out for them. All of those guys do."

Dave smiled. "Well, I'm just doing right by them, and you actually have an idea why. Maybe I'm trying to avoid getting knocked in the head with 'Instant Karma', as the song says."

Gretchen laughed. "You believe in karma?" she asked sincerely.

"I think there's a tendency to believe that things all even-out in the end. If nothing else, it's like poetic justice or something. Do I believe in it as, like, a formal belief? I don't know. I don't think so."

"Well," Gretchen responded, "I do have some school work to do myself, and I don't want to be up until midnight doing it, so I'm going to get going."

"Alright," Dave smiled into the phone, "see you tomorrow."

"See you tomorrow, and good night, Dave."

"Good night, Gretchen."

Dave ended the call and brought up a search page on his laptop screen. He typed "scandals lima ohio" into the field and clicked. He was rewarded with an address and a map immediately.