Panzerschliffe Hohenzollern: I confess I did base the First Order's annexation model from the Tau Empire in Warhammer 40K. I think that it is one of the best ways for an Empire to expand their territory as peacefully as possible. Its policies also ensure that resistance and long-term rebellions will be very few and far between. It is also a brilliant way to spread your culture to your new subjects without risking cultural backlash and division in your new territory. It is also brilliant to ensure that any rebellions that do erupt will probably lack common support and will be focused on the poorer and uninfluential. This means that they will a minimal threat and it will allow you to get rid of all the resistance members of the world in one swoop.
With all this in mind I believe this is the tactic and policy that would suit mindset that Kuvira. She is determined to spread the First Order across the galaxy and to build it up as the pre-eminent galactic power. But she is willing to take her time with this. And unlike the Empire she will not demand it all happen in her lifetime. She is prepared to lay the ground work and let the First Order take root and grow over centuries into an eternal empire.
Artgirl162: Thank you for your review. I am glad you are enjoying the story.
Truth's Hierarch: Thank you for your review. As always, I enjoy reading them and considering all your points. Thank you for your concern. I hope you are also staying safe during these times. In regards to the annexation policy. I believe this is the tactic and policy that would suit mindset that Kuvira. She is determined to spread the First Order across the galaxy and to build it up as the pre-eminent galactic power. But she is willing to take her time with this. And unlike the Empire she will not demand it all happen in her lifetime. She is prepared to lay the ground work and let the First Order take root and grow over centuries into an eternal empire.
Lady Syndra: I partially agree with you on the sequel trilogy. I try to remember that the writers can only fit so much into a two-hour film. That is were books, comics, tv-series and other things come in to help the world building. Still I agree that the third movie has created problems. It is the reason why my updates are slower. Because I am quite lost about how to meld things together in the new canon. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this next chapter as well.
Shade: Thanks for your review. I am glad you liked the First Order's annexation policy. I have to confess I heavily borrowed from the policies of the Tau Empire in Warhammer 40K. If you have not already checked out that series. I highly recommend it.
.2020: Thank you for your review. I am glad you enjoyed the chapter.
TheOnceUnknown: Thank you for your review. I am glad you are enjoying the chapter. I am still struggling to decide on how to combine the story with the current canon. I know that I do not have to include Palpatine. But many readers have expressed that they want to see how Kuvira will react to the knowledge that Palpatine is alive. I admit I am quite curious as well and it does offer a lot of opportunities. Anyway, I hope you enjoy this chapter as well.
Guest: Thanks for your review. I confess I am still planning that confrontation myself. I hope you enjoy this chapter as well.
Dominus1389: Thanks for the review. I have not considered that before. But it would make an interesting chapter.
Guest: Thanks for your review. I really appreciate all that you said about the characters and the world building. Glad to know it is being well received. I hope you enjoy this chapter as we
N0tLogical: Thanks for your review. I really appreciate all the complementary things you said. Yeah when I first started, I was working on wordpad and did not have a spell and grammar checking system. So there where a few mistakes in the early chapters. Glad to hear you are enjoying Kuvira and are also a supporter of the First Order and Empire. I have tried to flesh out Kuvira's more internal personality in this chapter so I hope you like the direction I took it.
Guest: Thank you for your review. Yeah I admit I am still struggling with the choice between Palpatine or No Palpatine. I personally don't want to bring him back but I already have a storyline in place for it. I have not come up for one without him yet. I need to think about it before choosing. Anyway I hope you enjoy this chapter.
Chapter 32 – Interlude pt.3
Supremacy
Brig – Secure Holding Cells
Leia – POV
Kuvira stepped into the holding cell fully. She was clad in her black uniform. But her Grand Admiral greatcoat and cap where absent. Her black hair was done up in its usual style. But otherwise she seemed like she was not intent on maintaining formalities.
In fact, there was not even a visible display of her rank anywhere on her uniform. Not that she really needed it. Everyone in the First Order knew who she was. Even if they had never meet her or seen her in person. Her face was displayed on banners, posters, holograms and all forms of propaganda throughout the First Order dominion.
But still it was apparent to any moderate observer that the Grand Admiral was approaching this meeting with some laxity. Or at least whatever based for laxity regarding Grand Admiral Kuvira.
And whatever else might be said about her. Leia Organa was not a moderate observer.
The General rose to her feet as Kuvira entered her cell. She did this almost instructively. It was partially a hang on from her royal upbringing which demanded such acts of decorum. It was also an attempt to meet the Grand Admiral face to face, eye to eye and thereby as equals. Leia would be the first to admit that their situation reflected a complete imbalance of power. But that did not mean she intended to display that fact herself.
Meanwhile Leia was still clad in her black Alderaanian mourning garb. She had been offered a change of clothes by the prison staff. But she had refused to change into the dull prison uniform she had been presented with. At least not yet. She had taken the clothes as she knew she would eventually have no alternative. But for the moment, she allowed herself this small passive resistance.
Kuvira stepped into the room and came to a halt in front of Leia.
For a long moment the two simply regarded each other. There was complete silence and the tension in the room became so thick that it was almost visible to the naked eye.
To the untrained, it would seem that the two women were regarding each other in stony silence. But otherwise with no clear indications of how they were feeling. There were no signs of irritation or anger. No expressions of emotion beyond their stoic visages. No weapons on their person to show hostile intent or fear for their safety.
But to those who were trained for observation. They could see that both were standing with their muscles tense and their tendons wound tight as if in preparation for combat. If they carefully observed their pupils and breathing, they would know that their adrenaline levels were spiking and coursing through their blood.
In Leia's case the Force also answered her call and the currents of it began to whip around her as she felt it react to her conscious and sub-conscious will.
While with Kuvira, her many years of command and personal combat experience called her warrior initiation in to play. Her senses were kicked into over drive as she became completely aware of her surroundings.
In summation, while wearing expressions of neutrality. Both women were tense, expectant, exhilarated and ready to react to anything in a moment's notice.
After what felt like eons. But were no more than a few moments. Kuvira opened the conversation.
"I trust my people have treated you well General?" She enquired. "I gave very specific orders that you were to be treated with all respect."
Leia nodded slowly but with all politeness. "Given the situation I cannot complain Grand Admiral. I would like to be granted freedom for myself and my people. But aside from that you troopers have been disciplined if a bit rough in their duties." She said with somewhat mocking humour.
Leia looked Kuvira in the eye as she asked her own question. "What has been done with my people? Are they being treated well?" She asked with clear stoicism but the look of concern and worry in her eyes and face could not be entirely hidden. It was clear to Kuvira just how much General Leia Organa valued her crew and her followers.
It was a clear contrast to her own leadership.
Kuvira valued her soldiers, pilots and crew. She even respected a number of individuals. But she valued them as one would a valuable resource rather than as comrades. She would never sacrifice them for no reason or waste their lives without need. She was willing to risk her own life in battle beside them, and would do all she could to preserve as many of them as possible.
But she never lost sight of the fact that they were there to be sacrificed. They were there to fight (and if needs be die) to preserve, defend and advance the First Order. It was her job to ensure that their lives were spent wisely. An Admiral who was afraid to lose soldiers or to see their army hurt was unfit for command. It was those people who would be good administrators, but did not possess the stomach for war.
And she never lost sight of the fact that she was not there to be liked or to be their friend. She was there to make sure they all served the First Order well. And if one had to die. She would make sure that life was sold dearly.
Seeing Leia's genuine concern for her comrades made Kuvira wonder how she had been able to maintain her close relationship with her fellow rebels while at the same time conducting a war?
Still she put aside those thoughts for another time. For now, she focused on the woman in front of her.
"Your fellow Resistance commanders have been taken and interned in high security prison cells similar to this one. I will not divulge any additional information on them aside from the fact that they are alive and unhurt." She answered simply before she continued. "The common soldiers are already being processed and sent for interrogation."
On seeing Leia's expression, she quickly reassured her. "I promised you that they would not be subjected to torture or any other form of harm, and I will keep that promise. But that does not mean they will not be humanly interrogated for information."
She continued. "Once that is done. They will be judged before the military tribunal and convicted based on their history of service against the First Order. As I promised, none of them will be harmed and they will face a maximum sentence of only a few years. They will then be transported across First Order territory to their designated prisons. Beyond that I have no say in their future."
Leia nodded. "But they will live. And hopefully be free one day soon." She looked directly at Kuvira as she spoke those words. "I appreciate that." She said sincerely.
Kuvira nodded her simple acceptance of the gratitude. She was not familiar with gratitude from an enemy and simple resolved to acknowledge it and move on.
She considered her next words for a moment before voicing them. "I imagine you have been in this position many times before, General." She said with no hint of mockery in her voice. "First as a defeated rebel in Imperial prisons. Later as a victories New Republic officer interrogating imperial prisoners."
She paused as she allowed what might have been sardonic humour to creep into her voice. "What is it you Jedi are fond of saying? 'The circle is now complete?" She quoted curiously.
Leia raised an eyebrow at the quote but responded flippantly despite the implication. "True, or it could mean that the circle has another opportunity to turn. Who knows, we might find ourselves in this situation again in the future. The circumstances might be different though." She said with cool detachment and no indication that her words were a threat.
Kuvira took the comment in stride and simply nodded slightly. "I confess, that thought did cross my mind."
Leia looked surprised as she raised an eyebrow in an unspoken question.
Kuvira instantly saw it and obliged her. "A military commander who does not even consider defeat as a possibility is a fool." She spoke with a hint of bitterness in her voice. "I will not be compared to the likes of Hux or Palpatine."
Leia had known from intelligence reports that the Grand Admiral was noticeably hard in her condemnation of Palpatine and his actions as Emperor. But this was the first time she was seeing it for herself. It reminded her of a question that she had always had but never believed she would ever be able to ask.
But if her imprisonment provided nothing else. It might provide some insight into the mind of her enemy. And that was something that was always valuable.
"Your comment reminds me of a question I have had for a long time, Grand Admiral. Would you mind if I asked you about it?" She said with politeness. They may be enemies in a holding cell. But that did not mean they could not be civil.
Kuvira regarded her for a second before she responded. "You can ask whatever you like General. Though I reserve the right not to answer." She said plainly.
Leia nodded her understanding and continued. "You clearly have a great dislike for Palpatine. I cannot say I don't disagree. I despised him as well because of everything he had done." She said while Kuvira nodded her confirmation.
Leia continued. "Yet you are dedicated to restoring his legacy. You hate Palpatine but you want to restore the Empire that he built. I am curious why you would be so dedicated to this cause. And I know you are smart enough that it cannot just be because of your First Order…upbringing." She finished lamely. She had been on the verge of saying conditioning. But though better of it.
Kuvira regarded her for a moment before she answered. "You confuse loyalty to the Empire as loyalty to the Emperor." She stated.
Leia frowned in uncertainty.
Kuvira noticed the change in her demeanour, and she let out small sigh. Her figure relaxed slightly and her muscles began to uncoil as she no longer anticipated combat. At least not in the immediate future.
She motioned towards the bed that connected to the wall on one side of Leia's cell. Clearly inviting her to sit down.
After a few moments of indecision Leia moved towards the bed and sat down regally.
Kuvira then gestured to the prison guards who were watching from the main corridor of the detention centre. Quickly they managed to procure a small stool as if from thin air. But then again, they were highly motivated to fulfil the unspoken request of the Grand Admiral.
In the span of seconds, the small and unadorned stool was placed in the cell and Kuvira sat down upon it. After she nodded her thanks to the guards as they quickly vacated the cell again.
Kuvira and Leia sat and stared at each other for a few seconds as if trying to get used to the somewhat relaxed atmosphere that was emerging.
Kuvira half turned her head to her guards. "Leave us." She ordered.
The two Praetorian guards were trained exceptionally well and had endured mental and physical trials to obtain their position. But even they hesitated when they heard this order. One of them paused before he spoke. "Grand Admiral?" He asked. His voice half questioning and half imploring.
Kuvira did not even bother looking away from Leia. Her voice did not rise but suddenly had steel in it. "Obey my command." She stated dangerously.
The guards hesitated for a second longer. Then they bowed and walked out of the cell and took up position on either side of the entrance. One second later the door to the cell closed. Leaving Kuvira and Leia alone.
Kuvira continued answering Leia's earlier question. "You assume that if one is loyal to the Empire, then they must be loyal to the Emperor. But they are two different things. I can be loyal and believe in the Imperial ideal and still hate the man who happened to sit on the throne. You don't have to personally like an artist or a musician but you can still enjoy and take pleasure and admiration in their creations. I consider it something similar." Kuvira explained.
Leia could not help but let us a small laugh. "Of all the ways I have heard the Empire described over the years. I have never had anyone compare it to art or music. Did you take that analogy from Grand Admiral Thrawn?" She asked curiously.
Kuvira shook her head. "No. I have long admired the great Grand Admiral Thrawn. I have tried to incorporate many of his tactics and lessons into my own command philosophy. But his skill with art is something I could never imitate. Still my analogy might have been inspired by him." She clarified.
Leia nodded her acknowledgement but her face took on a darker turn at her next words. "It is hard for me to remember the Empire as anything so benign as art. There was nothing artistic or beautiful in the destruction of Alderaan. Nothing poetic, nothing majestic. Just horrific and evil." She stated with a bitterness in her voice that had never gone away throughout the years. Not since that fatal day on the first Death Star.
Kuvira did not react to her bitterness visibly. "A great mistake on Tarkin's part. Alderaan should never have been destroyed. The destruction of an asteroid or an uninhabited moon would have sent the message Tarkin wished. And it would have done so with much less collateral damage and political fallout. Tarkin was an impressive man. I might go so far as to call him an exceptional man. But his training on Eriadu blinded him to the fact that the laws of the jungle are not always the ways of sentient beings." She shook her head mournfully. "That bit of theatre haunted the Empire until Jakku. Sent worlds flocking to the rebellion and caused many loyal Imperials to question their loyalty." She said bitterly.
Leia's eyes turned hard as flint as she listened to Kuvira's words. "Collateral damage, political fallout, theatre?" She repeated as she stared at her hands which were clasping her knees tightly. "I should have known you would use such clean and clinical words to describe the destruction of an innocent pacifist world. The deaths of billions just so the Empire could make a point." She bit out. Her voice still sounding calm but with such coldness it almost seemed to mist the air.
In response Kuvira's expression also darkened and her next words were biting in her response. "Not quite so innocent, and not quite so pacifist as you might like to remember, General." She responded. "Or do you choose to forget the hundreds of thousands of weapons, warships and black-market funds your father was funnelling to the Rebellion?" She questioned sarcastically.
Leia's looked up from her knees. Directly into Kuvira's face. Her eyes were burning with indignation. "My father was sending those weapons to help people fight the injustice of the Empire. He was helping people in need when they needed help. He was doing all he could to ensure that the people suffering under the Empire had some measure of support." She spat.
Kuvira was unphased and clearly unimpressed. "So, you claim that all the weapons and tools of war he sent through Alderaan were used for idealistic groups who fought only in defence? For reason and justice?" She asked with heavy scepticism. "Forgive me if I don't believe such propaganda, General. But then I do not have the nativity of a child."
"Your father was a terrorist and an anarchist. Passing himself off as a pacifistic man of peace and diplomacy. While all the while he was a merchant of death in the shadows. Hiding behind his political immunity and using the reputation of his world to bring more war, more pain, more death to the galaxy."
"And look what such actions brought to his world and his people. He practically painted a target on his homeworld. If it were not for your father, Alderaan would still exist today. He was just as responsible for its destruction as Tarkin was." Kuvira stated with no mercy in her condemnation.
Leia glowered back with equal venom in her stare and her voice. "My father would not have been the man I loved and admired, if he did not risk everything to free the people of the galaxy. He would not have been the man the galaxy needed him to be." She signed in resignation. "But I don't know why I am trying to debate the morality of things with you. You destroyed the entire Hosnian system. You far surpassed Tarkin that day. In fact, I would go so far to call it the greatest act of mass murder in galactic history." She said accusingly while watching Kuvira for any sign of a reaction.
Kuvira gave no sign that the words bothered her even a little. That made Leia both angry and for some reason, disappointed.
Kuvira meanwhile simply continued as if the accusation had not been said. "That was not some act of senseless murder like Tarkin did at Alderaan. That was a legitimate strike on an enemy during war. I needed to cut the head of the snake in the opening round to ensure that the war would be much quicker and much less destructive then a long drawn out conflict." She paused. "I do not pretend that I ordered the destruction of Hosnian Prime just to save lives. It was purely a tactical decision based on military strategy. The fact that it will shorten the war and save lives is a pleasant bonus. But the fact remains that by killing billions I may have saved hundreds of trillions." She stated bluntly.
Leia regarded her for a moment longer. Then she seemed to let go of the anger that had built up in the room as the debate raged. After a moment, she looked at Kuvira. This time the gaze was not one from an enemy General or an idealistic opponent. The look she had seemed to be one of a parent, trying desperately to understand the mind of their child.
"Grand Admiral." She started before she reconsidered and started again. "Kuvira, just answer this question." She said with voice that was not far from being a plead.
Kuvira narrowed her eyes in suspicion. But she nodded her assent.
Leia took that as confirmation and began. "Do you feel, anything? For the billions of people that died on Hosnian Prime? For all those that died throughout the Hosnian System?" She asked carefully.
Kuvira sat still for a moment. Her eyes were boring into Leia but she otherwise made no indication that she was considering her words. After a while Leia began to think that Kuvira had chosen not to answer her. But just as she was about to give up. The younger woman spoke.
"89,002,553,570." She said stiffly
Leia looked at her on confusion.
Kuvira soon clarified. "The estimated number of people who died during the Hosnian Cataclysm. I researched the population surveys of very planet in the Hosnian system. I studied immigration and emigration patterns and estimated their results on the day of the attack. I reviewed holo-images, news feeds, cultural symposiums, natural landmarks." She continued her voice picking up speed as she talked.
"I studied them so I would know the heart of the New Republic. The heart of my enemy." She paused. "But I also studied them to make sure that I saw the faces of the people that I was condemning to death. I did not have too, and they would have remained nothing more to me then a statistic on a screen rather than actual people. But I refused to do so." She trailed off.
Leia waited for a second before she prompted her to continue. "So why didn't you?" She asked softly.
Kuvira was quiet for a moment. "I didn't for a number of reasons. The first was that I needed to make sure that I could see them as real people and still have the resolve to carry out the order. I needed to know if I had what it took to be Grand Admiral of the First Order. A military leader who balks at bloodshed, no matter how large, is not fit to lead." She stated with firm conviction in her voice and a note of something else as she studied Leia's facial and body language very closely. Leia was unsure what she was looking for. But after a few seconds the scrutinizing gaze subsided and Kuvira continued.
"Secondly. I intend to make sure I never become so disconnected from the galaxy that I become like Tarkin, Rax or Palpatine. They ordered the deaths of billions. I am not such a hypocrite to condemn them for that, when I have done the same.
But I do condemn the ease that they did it. Tarkin ordered the destruction of Alderaan for no tactical reason, just to send a message. Rax ordered the deaths of loyal worlds like Vados for no reason other than to fulfil Palpatine's megalomaniacal last wish. They were able to do this because they had become so disconnected from the rest of the galaxy that they never understood that they were killing people, rather than numbers on a screen."
She looked Leia squarely in the eye while hers burned with conviction. "I will kill personally and order the deaths of billions if I must, General. But I will never allow myself to forget that my victims were living breathing people. I will not forget that they lived. That they mattered to someone. It is this that forced me to apologise to that engineer who tried to kill me in the hanger. It is that which ensures that my enemies remain people to me. No matter how much I hate them. And it is this which allows me to remain a Grand Admiral and not a butchering warlord." She finished.
Leia did not respond. She was studying Kuvira very carefully and intently. Whether or not she was studying her just as closely in the Force she didn't know. Nor did she care.
"Thirdly, I observed the people of Hosnian Prime because I owed it to them." She said bluntly. She elaborated before Leia could ask the anticipated question. "It is not the most tactical or logical reason I could give General. But it is the real one. I made myself see every face, watch every world and every unique thing in the Hosnian system because if I could not spare them, I could at least remember them. I owed them that much." She finished her explanation and did not seem inclined to say any more on the matter.
Leia's mind was racing from all that she had heard.
She had at times wondered if Kuvira was simply another run of the mill Imperial leader. Certainly, more skilled then the usual. But ultimately the same cold, ruthless unfeeling jackboot that would crush the life from an infant while smiling. Or order the enslavement of an entire race simply because they did not look human enough.
There had been moments when she had believed that Kuvira was like one of those monsters. The destruction of Hosnian Prime. The attempt to kill Han, Chewie and Rey on Starkiller base. The sheer single-minded devotion she had to the First Order over all else.
But other moments. Combined with the conversation they were having had convinced her that what she had always suspected was correct. Kuvira was much deeper than first glance would appear.
Leia had always known that the Imperial officers, stormtroopers and other enemies she faced were not one-dimensional villains. Like Kuvira had said, they were people who mattered to someone in the galaxy. It was a truth that many in the Rebellion had forgotten as the war went on. But the majority of them were those that seemed to lack any true sense of conscience or seemed incapable of empathy.
It was not surprising. After all, why would Palpatine want people who could actually make moral choices for themselves in the Imperial High Command.
Those Imperial commanders who were capable of thinking for themselves in the moral sense were quickly disgraced, disappeared or exiled to some desolate corner of the Empire to dwell in obscurity. The only ones that survived where the ones who followed the Emperor and his minions loyally. Or the ones who were simply too valuable to lose, like Thrawn.
These thoughts prompted her to take the conversation forward further. She was having an actual conversation with an enemy that had hounded her and the Resistance for years. She would take this opportunity to learn all she could about her.
"I have sometimes wondered if you were simply following in the footsteps your Imperial teachers laid out for you. But I can see that you genuinely believe in what you say. I also see that you are willing to stand by your convictions, no matter what they are." She began. "Can I ask you something personal?"
Kuvira did not hesitate. "You can ask me whatever you want General. Once again I reserve the right not to answer." She stated bluntly.
Leia nodded and after a second continued. "Have you ever considered if you are on the wrong side?" She asked plainly.
Kuvira was instant in her answer. "I don't believe there is a right or wrong side in this war or anything else, General. All there is, is fighting for the side you personally believe in." She replied with utter surety.
Leia was not put out by the bluntness of the answer and persisted. "So, you personally believe that the galaxy and its people would be better served by tyranny?" She asked. There was no accusation in her voice, only simple curiosity.
Kuvira looked at Leia pointedly. "You serve a tyranny as well General Organa. One that you seek to place as the dominant force in the galaxy." She countered. At Leia's confused look she elaborated. "The New Republic." She clarified.
Leia's eyes narrowed at her words. "I support democracy, Grand Admiral. Freedom. I would hardly call that tyranny." She said firmly.
Kuvira shook her head. As if in wonderment of Leia's naivety. "And what is Democracy but the tyranny of the uninformed?" She asked.
Leia stared at her as the cynicism of the phrase sunk in. "That has the saying of a family lesson?" She asked. Wondering if the intelligence reports were wrong. And if Kuvira actually had family in the First Order.
Kuvira nodded in acknowledgement. "My instructor and mentor Captain Cardinal said it often. It was one of the many lessons that I took to heart." She said as a smattering of fondness for her mentor creeped into her voice.
Leia nodded. "I am sorry to hear that you were raised in such cynicism for your fellow beings. But I have to say it explains a lot about you. About the choices you have made. I assume you are not an advocate of equality either?" She asked with challenge in her voice. Equality was after all such a universally excepted concept that many would not openly stand against it. Even if they wanted too.
But clearly Kuvira felt otherwise.
"Equality." Kuvira repeated as if the word made a bad taste in her mouth. "I support equal opportunity, General. Everyone should have their chance to excel and rise to greatness. But the simple fact is that not everyone does." She stated bluntly.
Leia stared at her resolutely. "And I suppose to you the weak and the helpless deserve nothing more than to be ruled over?" She asked.
Kuvira had no hesitation. "It is not an opinion, General. It is a universal truth." She proclaimed, her voice unknowingly taking on the tone of an impassioned speech. "You are a smart woman General. So, you must know that the New Republic was dying long before we delivered the final blow. It was doomed to failure. Crumpling under its own inefficacies, indolence and most of all its lack of direction."
Kuvira looked at Leia with an expression that contained not a shred of doubt as she expressed her central philosophy. "The simple and unequitable truth, General; is that every species, every person every opinion is not equal. No matter how much you or they want it to be."
"The fact that you and I are here having this conversation on an advanced warship is proof that some species are naturally superior to others. Some rise to greatness and travel the stars while others remain on their homeworlds, hiding in the tree's and under the bushes."
"Some are blessed with great strength. Others with great speed. Others possess great intelligence and yet others with great charisma. By birth and nature every being is different. But the strong and the capable will always rise to take charge of their fellows and lead. Just as I have done." Kuvira stated as she looked at Leia closely. "And just as you have done." She reminded her.
"And every living being is safer and happier knowing their place in the grand scheme of things. Knowing that they have a capable and strong leader looking out for their best interests, when they are incapable of doing so. This is what makes our rise to leadership not just a responsibility. It makes it a duty to bring peace and stability, through strength and order.
"The right way. The only real way."
Silence reigned for a moment as Leia and Kuvira stared at each other. Leia as she absorbed and processed all that she had heard. While Kuvira looked at her as if daring her to contradict her viewpoint.
Leia could understand Kuvira's philosophy. There were causes and beliefs she could understand even as she fought against them. Even if she hated and opposed it with every fibre of her being.
She admitted that there was a pleasant logic and simplicity to Kuvira's worldview. No species was worth any more or less then the other. It was only the strength of the individual that mattered and how far they could rise. The idea that this left the strongest, cleverest and most capable people in positions of power too lead the ignorant masses as they toiled in mediocrity and obedience. That the common people of the galaxy should just accept that they were ignorant and less informed. And would be better off fulfilling their duties, whatever they were.
To believe that such a system was the only logical and natural solution to the chaos of an ever-shifting galaxy did seem appealing in its way.
But Leia knew that people who held such a philosophy were capable of great horrors as well as great achievements. They were able to shrug off the concerns of the innocent masses and were able to disregard the plight of individual concerns and freedoms. All of it in the name of maintaining the order and stability of the galaxy.
Morals and ethics were luxuries for these people, rather than essentials. They would only be as caring and compassionate as the universe and situation allowed them to be. But if they felt it demanded it, they would unleash pain and death on an unimaginable scale to achieve their ends.
This was clearly how Kuvira viewed the universe as evidenced by the many actions she had committed. All of them making a logical sense but with a detached ruthlessness that chilled Leia to her soul.
Leia had often tried to put herself in the mind of her enemies over the years. She had tried to understand the motivations and believes of people like Grand Moff Tarkin, Emperor Palpatine, Grand Admiral Rae Sloane, and so many others.
She had done it both to try and see if they would be opening to changing sides and joining the rebellion. But also, to see if she could learn what kind of person they were and what led them to serve tyrannical regimes. She believed that if she could gain even a small understanding of that Imperial loyally. Maybe she would find some way to convince more loyal Imperials that what they were doing was wrong.
She knew that many of her fellow rebels and resistance allies simply explained it by viewing the enemy as inhuman amoral monsters or just plain evil.
But Leia knew that reality was never so simple. Each person had a reason and a motivation for what they believed and how they viewed the world around them. Some reason was deeply rooted in their childhood and upbringing. Others were a result of the location and atmosphere of their birth place. And others were simply a personal choice made for a reason that was not even clear to the individual in question.
Leia was old and experienced enough these days to know that the Old Republic had given plenty of people across the galaxy reason to hate it. She was also forced to admit that some of the violent rebel cells had given ordinary people more then amble reason to be loyal to the Empire.
Leia had often wondered over the years, what Kuvira's motivation was. What her viewpoint was born from. She had thought that if she could understand the way Kuvira viewed the universe. Maybe she would uncover some way to defeat or at least neutralise her.
But now as she regarded the young woman in front of her and considered the way she must view the galaxy around her. All Leia could think about was now Kuvira's way of viewing the world made her feel….so sad.
Still she set her face and regarded Kuvira blankly. "It sounds as if you are certain that your vison for the future will take hold Grand Admiral." She stated. "Do you believe that destiny had selected you to right the wrongs of the Republic and to save the galaxy from itself?" She asked as she continued to try and decipher Kuvira's personal beliefs.
Instead Kuvira grimaced as if she had suddenly encountered a bad taste in her mouth. "Destiny is for fools, General." She stated bluntly. "In my experience belief in destiny is reserved for lazy idiots who believe that the universe will just hand them what they want. Or for vainglorious fools who believe that their life is part of and bound by some great cosmic plan. All the while, failing to understand that the universe is completely indifferent to their existence." Kuvira spat.
She paused as she regarded Leia for a moment, before voicing her line of thought. "Rather like your Force in many ways." She said with thinly veiled emotion in her voice.
Leia heard her tone of voice and it led her to asking a question that she had been wondering for a long time. "I can sense your emotions spike every time the Force is mentioned. At first I thought it was simple distaste for 'superstitious nonsense' like most Imperial's felt about it." She said as she stared into Kuvira's face, studying her very carefully.
"But I see, now that it is much more then that." She said as she paused as if fighting not to choke out the following words. "You hate the Force, don't you?" She asked as more of a statement then a question. "I can feel the intensity of your hatred for it. It is beyond anything I have ever sensed from you." Leia whispered as she forced the burning emotion that Kuvira was emitting to wash over her Force barrier and to lessen its effects on her.
"Why? Why do you hate the Force so much?" She asked as she found it hard to contemplate that anyone could feel such loathing for the very thing that bound all life in the universe together. To hate the Force was in a what to hate existence itself.
Kuvira was silent for a long moment. Then just as Leia began to think her question would go unanswered. Kuvira spoke. And when she did her voice took on a tone of such certainty and such despairing finality that Leia was taken a back.
"General. I know that many years ago you studied the Force and Jedi ways with your brother Luke Skywalker. Learning about how to use the Force to bring justice and hope and light back to the galaxy, and other such platitudes. But before you do that let me give you my own lesson. A little taste of my philosophy as I see the Force." She said as she sat back and leaned against the wall of the cell.
"I will admit that I cannot sense or perceive the force as you can. The deeper mysteries of it are, and will always be a mystery too me. I will never experience the Force. But what I can and have done is make a great study of the Force's impact on galactic history." She explained.
Leia nodded her understanding as she regarded Kuvira carefully. Clearly paying close attention to what she was saying.
Kuvira continued. "Did Skywalker tell you that the Jedi and the Sith have been at war since the beginning of recorded history? Endlessly fighting their never-ending wars to ensure that their side of the Force rose triumphant over the other." She asked with clear indications that her question was rhetorical.
"And before the Jedi and Sith. There were the Jed'aii. Before them, there were the Rakata and before them the Kwa."
"Back and back through the ages it has been the same story. A civilization becomes aware of the Force. They begin to worship it and harness it. They become aware of the dual nature of the Force in the light side and the dark side."
"And then, eventually, inevitably." Kuvira recited each word with clear emphasis as she built to her intended point.
"They turn on each other. They butcher each other in their wars until the entire galaxy is caught up in the blaze and it all just burns down around them."
Kuvira stared at Leia intently as she spoke. "This is war we are fighting right now, is not a unique situation General. This conflict is just one of many that has spanned the centuries. And they rage for years or even centuries until; eventually, inevitably. One side wins and crushes the other beneath its heel. Only for the cycle to repeat and start all over again." Kuvira said as her normally neutral expression began to twist into one of distaste and annoyance.
"And do you know what the Force you love so much as done during all this? Do you know what that blessed energy has done as countless planets burned and billions of trillions died during the wars over the millennia?" She asked as her eyes hardened and Leia saw her aura in the Force began to burn like a torch as her emotion bubbled to the surface of her awareness.
"Nothing. Absolutely nothing." Kuvira stated with clear finality. "Instead of removing the powers it gives to certain individuals. Instead of making itself and its presence unperceivable. Instead of just leaving for a new galaxy to torment. The Force just stood back as uncountable people were butchered and watched the show." Kuvira finished as she watched Leia closely, as if daring her to correct her argument.
Leia was silent for a moment. She knew that what Kuvira was saying was not the reality of the Force. The Force was nearly impossible for those who could perceive it to fully understand. For someone who was blind to it to comprehend it was total impossible. But even as she knew that, she found herself unable to immediately refute Kuvira's words.
She had never thought of the Force like that.
She knew that the Force had been the centre of the wars between the Jedi and Sith. And it had been used in countless wars by the various races and nations of the galaxy who could sense it. But that was the fault of beings who fell to the dark side and demanded power and the right to rule. This brought them into conflict with others. Especially followers of the light side, who could be just as destructive in their zealotry. Those were the reasons why the wars constantly happened. It was not by the design of the Force itself.
Right?
"No, you wrong." Leia responded. But her voice was lacking the certainty that she would normally have when discussing the Force. "Why would the Force do that?"
Kuvira responded so quickly she had clearly been waiting for Leia's rebuttal.
"Because it doesn't care!" Kuvira snapped. Her composure slipping slightly as her anger towards the Force began to carve away at her discipline.
"It doesn't care about you, me, the Jedi, the Sith, anything." She spat with clear distaste in her voice. "The Force doesn't care who lives, who dies. And it doesn't care who wins. It doesn't care if the galaxy is guided by the Jedi or ruled by the Sith. It doesn't care and you know why it doesn't care?!" Kuvira demanded.
Leia did not answer. But Kuvira did not allow her any time to respond as she continued on her rant. "Because it doesn't matter." Kuvira said with some of the fiery anger fading from her voice. Instead it was being replaced with a level of weary futility it was almost nihilistic.
"Because no matter who wins one war. The Force will always ensure that the defeated side is ready to rise up from the ashes and cast down the other side. And then the cycle starts all over again. As long as the Force has its precious semblance of balance. It goes on ad infinitum."
Kuvira leaned forward as she rested her arms on her knees. Leia thought that the pose looked very out of place on the typically stern and imposing Grand Admiral. But the weariness that permeated Kuvira's voice, seemed to have seeped into her body as well. Driving away her rigidity and dominance, and leaving a relaxed posture seemingly borne from pure futility.
"This war is just the latest in a long line of conflicts in the never-ending chain of Force created madness. Just look through history." She said to Leia.
"The Great Hyperspace war; the light side won."
"The Great Galactic War; the dark side won."
"The New Sith Wars; the light side won."
"The Clone Wars; the dark side won."
"The Galactic Civil War; the light side won."
Kuvira recited in a way that had Leia wondering if she was mentally counting the galactic conflicts on her fingers.
"And now we come to our own conflict. So, tell me General, who do you think the Force will let win this time?" She asked in another rhetorical question.
Leia was momentarily silent. As much as she wanted too, she could not deny that Kuvira's words and analyse of galactic history did seem to make some sense.
Luke had told her that the Force did strive for balance. It naturally abhorred an imbalance when the light or the dark had grown too powerful. It allowed certain places to be stronger in one side of the force then the other. Just as Illum was strong in the light side, Korriban was strong in the dark side.
But those were single locations, and balanced with opposite aligned locations across the galaxy. So, the Force did not alter the locations force presence. But he had told her that the cosmic force did strive to maintain balance across the universe.
She had just never actually contemplated what that maintaining of balance entailed.
The history of the galaxy had been dominated by the wars caused between the Force sensitive orders. They had basically defined the course of all galactic events even if only subtly. The fact that each side had never been able to achieve victory and had always been forced to fight a resurgent enemy was also a very real pattern.
The fact that these changes in galactic alignment always seemed to be brought about from a defeated foe that in all reality should not have been able to challenge the established order was also too much to be coincidence.
During the Great Galactic War, the old Republic had been brought to its knees by a Sith Empire founded by a fleet of refugees.
During the Clone Wars, a Jedi Order of thousands had been destroyed by a Sith Order of two.
And during the Rebellion, the odds of their victory had been astronomical. A droid had once claimed they had less than a 1% chance of success. Yet they had managed to win anyway.
She had always known that the Force had guided them to victory. Luke's defeat of Palpatine and redemption of Vader was evidence of that. But now Leia was forced to wonder if the Force had not helped them for any mortal concept of morality. Were they just being set up for the next turn of the wheel in the eternal cosmic balance?
Wishing Luke was there to explain things to her more clearly. Leia could not muse anymore as Kuvira began to speak again to drive her point home. "Don't you see that this defiance of yours is all meaningless, General?" Kuvira asked. "It is meaningless because you are almost destined to fail? And that doom is handed to you by the very think you wish to serve." Kuvira explained.
As she fell silent, she closed her emerald green eyes for a few seconds and took an audible breath. Leia was stunned to see an expression that she had never truly expected to see on the face of Grand Admiral Kuvira.
It was an expression of defeat.
"And yet I am trapped by it too. Even if we win and crush the resistance completely. Even if we go on to conquer the galaxy and destroy any rebellions that rise up. Even if the First Order rules the galaxy for a thousand or even ten thousand years. I know it will all be temporary. Because the Force will eventually spin the wheel back the other way. And all that we build will come crashing down. Only for it all to start again." She said with a tone that contained no emotion that Leia could identify. Anger, despair, defiance; perhaps all three?
"This is why I hate the Force, General. The two greatest reasons anyway." Kuvira summarised.
"I hate it for the sheer unfathomable levels of carnage that it created and perpetuates across eternity. Yes, I can and have caused the deaths of countless billions in my short life. But I always do it in the hopes and for the purpose of creating something better. Something that will improve the galaxy. And most of all, something that will last! Meanwhile the Force (as far as I can see) caused death and horror to achieve a goal. Only for it to cause more death and horror to undo it, when it feels the need to fulfil some pathetic form of cosmic yin and yang!"
"My second great reason for hating the Force. Is that it threatens to destroy and nullify everything I have dedicated my life too. Even if the First Order claims the galaxy and establishes a new, prosperous and successful Empire. I will go to my grave wondering when the Force will tear down all I have achieved and sacrificed for. Every day I perform my duties and I win battle after battle. But I am constantly haunted by the thought that it will all be meaningless in the end!"
Tension hung in the air as Kuvira fell into silence.
Both women were simply staring at each other as they regarded their opponent and everything that had been said.
Leia doubted that Kuvira had ever opened up to anyone about her inner turmoil before. She struck her as the type to disregard her emotional needs and focus entirely on her military duties. She wondered how long Kuvira had been keeping these thoughts, fears and hatreds bottled up inside her.
That also begged the question. Why would she open up to Leia about this? She supposed she had been the only one to ask her about her hatred of the Force. Snoke probably never cared why as long as his best commander continued to do her job. Kylo Ren might not have been able to sense it or did not bother to ask if he had.
Kuvira had probably never had a reason to voice her feelings on this matter before. Or at least not a reason she considered valid. Her emotional concerns clearly did not interest her beyond their interference with her job. Her First Order education has probably imparted a belief in pushing through feelings and worries and focusing on her duty.
She had probably also thought that if she was going to open up to anyone about her private thoughts. Who better then a prisoner who she had no intension of ever letting out of her cell?
Leia would need time to process all she had heard today. But for the moment she had to ask one more question. Possibly the most important question she could ask if she hoped to get Kuvira to spare the Republic and Resistance.
"If you know all that why don't you just stop. If everything we are fighting for will ultimately be undone. Why not spare yourself the pain and just give up?" She asked curiously
Kuvira looked at her with an unamused expression on her face. "Why don't you just give up, General?" She asked sarcastically. "You won't give up for the same reason I won't. I can't. It is what I have been trained for all my life. The First Order is who I am and I believe that it is the only force in the galaxy that bring stability and order to the cosmos."
"If I abandoned everything I have fought for. Everything I believe in. Everything I value and hope for, simply because of my concerns about the Force. Then I would be an even greater puppet of the Force's precious balance."
Kuvira sat up straight as she looked directly into Leia's eyes. "I won't surrender my goals or my independence to the Force. That is not who I am. Skywalker and those like him can go through their existence as an obedient tool of the Force. But whatever the future holds, I will live my life by my own choices and by my own design.
Kuvira and Leia regarded eachother for another long moment.
The silence was only broken when Kuvira's personal holocom started to chime with an incoming call. Kuvira brought out the small disk and activated it to reveal the blue hologram of Nephitina. "Yes Lieutenant? And be aware this channel is not secure." Kuvira commanded with a quick glance at Leia who remained sat on her prison bed.
Nephitina nodded her understanding and saluted as was appropriate. "I am sorry to disturb you Grand Admiral. But we have been contacted by Minister Terex from the FOSB. He says he has important information to the campaign." The Twilek woman reported with due respect.
Kuvira nodded. "Understood. I will make my way to the command deck." Kuvira confirmed before flicking off her communicator.
She turned back to face Leia. "I am afraid I must leave you General. Thank you for your time. It has been insightful." With that Kuvira turned and departed the cell as the Praetorian guards escorted her out and sealed the cell door behind them.
Leia sat there in silence as she contemplated all that had been said in that small room. "Yes, it has been insightful." She murmured to herself.
Kuvira - POV
Kuvira considered all she had learned of her enemy as she walked down the corridors of the Supremacy. Her guards trailing behind her.
To the untrained eye it would appear that the entire conversation had been one of recrimination, thinly veiled insults, political opposition and finally philosophical rambling.
But the truth was very different. The fact was that she had learned more valuable information about Leia Organa then she had read in all of her many battle reports and psyche profiles she had of her on record.
She recalled in the intelligence and psyche reports that Leia had a pattern in the Galactic Civil war. Her campaign strategy focused on quick lightning attacks followed by almost instant retreats. A smart tactic when facing a superior force. But she wondered if it was also influenced by her desire to get her friends out of danger as soon as possible.
Another of her favoured tactics was infiltration and subterfuge. While it had been less successful after her rebel loyalties had seen her cast from the Imperial senate. It has still seen victory on other campaigns. But once again she wondered if what she had previously perceived as sound military tactics. Was instead an attempt to reduce the bloodshed and to keep as many people away from battle as possible?
Even in direct battle General Organa seemed to hesitate when it came to committing her forces. At Yavin, only thirty rebel fighters had been present for the attack, while she knew Yavin had possessed a modest fleet at the time. At Endor, the rebel forces had committed their strength but only in a supposed surprise attack. And that was under the command of Admiral Ackbar.
After Endor more large-scale set piece battles had taken place. But by that point Leia had turned her focus away from the military to focus on the politics of the New Republic. She had left the matters of war to other commanders.
Kuvira considered all this at the speed of thought. It was possibly a vital clue to the mind of her opponent.
Leia might be her prisoner. But she would be foolish to assume she would never pose a threat again. Short of taking out her blaster and shooting her in the head (which she was not willing to do). She could not discount her as a threat.
But now she had a tactic to use against her directly.
It all indicated that Leia Organa might be a brilliant leader, possessing legendary charisma, skilled political acumen and a capable grasp of military tactics.
But she had a weakness. Leia Organa lacked the stomach for bloody war. She was familiar with pain, loss and sacrifice. But even after all these years. She was unwilling to resort to the vicious and savage horror of total war. She preferred to keep her forces in reserve to strike weak points while maintaining the supposed morale superiority.
She might previously have seen it as simple hearts and minds. But now Kuvira thought it went deeper than that. It went to the very core of Leia Organa's being.
Meanwhile Kuvira had long ago realised what Leia Organa seemingly refused to admit.
War was not logical.
War was not rational.
And War was certainly not moral.
The side that was willing to resort to tactics that the other side refused to use, would always have the edge. The side that was willing to accept greater losses. To accept greater hardships. To accept the conditions for victory no matter the cost.
That was the side that would ultimately win in the end.
Kuvira began to contemplate as she experienced the revelation that the way to defeat opponents like Leia Organa might not be in sneak attacks, grand gestures or political machinations.
The way to defeat her might be the time-honoured tactics of the war of attrition.
Kuvira knew she was prepared to wage total war and to fight it as long as necessary to win. No matter what it inflicted on the galaxy. No matter what the casualty levels were. Leia meanwhile would not be able to meet such resolve and would eventually crumble under the physical and mental onslaught.
That might be the secret to winning this war. Not in pitched battles or grand gestures like the Death Star's. But to grind the Resistance down little by little. Day by day until they were nothing but dust.
Kuvira's eyes were narrowed in thought all the way to the command deck to discuss the next phase of the war.
Authors Note
Sorry this took a while. It has been hard to find opportunities to write and this chapter has been very hard to get down on paper. There were so many things I wanted Kuvira and Leia to discuss and to discuss it properly while maintaining their characters.
Anyway, I hope you enjoyed it. As always thanks for the reviews.
Will try to update again soon.