Disclaimer, the usual however a quick note, this chapter will likely be one of my longer ones, however this chapter will be more of an introductory to the characters, descriptions will likely crop up again later in the story based off my style, so if you get bored, feel free to skip this.
When it came time for the council to begin, dorothy and alex found themselves sitting at the head of the large table in the chambers. Ozma was sitting at the foot of the table. Surrounding them were lion, on Dorothy's right, next to Lion was the Jester and Rose, next to them was the mayor of Munchkinland and General candy apple. To her left was Glinda, Locasta, the queen of the field mice, Marshall mallow, and the china princess.
"so, I guess we can call this meeting to order, you all know why we are here." Ozma said holding up her letter.
"yes, the Tribunal, I'm surprised they didn't try to appeal earlier." The jester said.
"they've been rather patient about the ordeal, I mean, the late king Pastoria didn't even call upon them unless he was quite busy or found that the crime was too terrible for him to judge, he was a pacifist, didn't like capital punishment, but it's what the tribunal was created for, they protected and upheld." Rose said.
"well, that's the popular belief as to why they formed it, no one is quite sure, no one is sure how they were able to meet with the council of immortals, they usually didn't hold council for outsiders." Glinda said.
"Glinda if we sit around talking about the theories that have massed over the years we'll be sitting here until tomorrow morning." Locasta said.
"but why would we want to allow them back? Even the animals of the forest feared their judgment." Lion said.
"but they weren't after regular animals, they were after the ones created unnaturally, such as the giant wolves created by his sister." Ozma said referring to the jester.
"yes, and I find it odd that they've started popping up again." Lion said.
"what do you mean lion?" dorothy asked curiously.
"well, in Winkie country, giant creatures are not unnatural, no one knows why they get as big as they do, no one really cares either at this point, but the wolves, the giant ones, are not native to the area, they just started appearing one day, very few actually knew my sister was responsible, and I rarely admit it" The jester said.
"but it was the inability for the tribunal to prevent an attack that gave the wizard the leverage he needed to shift all the blame on them, essentially exiling them." Ozma said.
"oh, I know that, but what could I do, I like everyone else, was terrified of my sister's wrath, so I couldn't go against her, couldn't even leave the castle." The jester said.
"but the tribunal weren't bad they were the ones who suggested the idea of the faction known as the community, if memory serves." The mayor of Munchkinland said.
"an idea that wouldn't be used until years later." The china princess said.
"but the tribunal was always helpful, Zinnia, and Fayth were always active and trying to help, and when the giant wolves came around, the hunt usually found them and took them to the sanctuary." The queen of the field mice said.
"the only two who allowed themselves to interfere if necessary." Ozma said.
"but now they want to come back, should we allow it?" General candy apple asked.
"ah, well, that's where I want to turn the table back to dorothy." Ozma said causing everyone to turn and look at her.
Dorothy smiled and cleared her throat.
"yes, well, the Tribunal, as has been established, was wrongfully punished, and I honestly think that we should correct that, Zinnia, in her letter to me, said that they no longer feel worthy to be passing judgement, they just want to be active in Oz's politics again, they also sent me this whistle in the event that we agree to allow them back." Dorothy said taking the silver whistle from her pocket.
"oh, you have one now as well?" Rose asked curiously.
"yes, even said I could keep it if I ever wind up in trouble." Dorothy said.
"yes, the tribunal's powers extend beyond what we can normally do, like say one of our friends here with the knowledge to do so, Glinda, Locasta , or the jester, made it impossible for you to leave using magic, couldn't click your heels, couldn't use the scepter, blow the whistle, and they'll pool their power to bind a spell powerful enough to retrieve you." Rose said.
"isn't that supposed to be rather draining?" alex asked curiously causing dorothy to raise an eyebrow.
"yes, which is why only four, now five, whistles had been handed out, they were never given to the ruler of the kingdom and the king, or queen could just call upon them by casting their seal." Rose said.
"why'd you get one?" The mayor of Munchkinland asked curiously.
"Honestly, I never asked, Fayth had been travelling through our little village one day with the rest of the members of the hunt chasing some of the giant wolves that had been spotted in the area, she came to our house and asked for me, and handed me the whistle, I only ever used it once, when I ended up in a rather sticky situation that I'd rather not share." Rose said.
"this was shortly before they were exiled?" Glinda asked curiously.
"the day after I blew the whistle, news of the attack was spreading like wildfire, two days later, the wizard exiled them and banned them from polite society." Rose said.
"but it was the only attack that happened under the hunt." The jester said.
"wait so they weren't just pointlessly capturing animals?" Lion asked.
"no, of course not, they would bring them to the sanctuary and calm them, teach them restraint and such, if an animal was severely wounded, they helped nurse it back to health by transporting it to the sanctuary, which is a beautiful valley by the way, easy to get lost in." Rose said.
"how come people haven't just stumbled upon them then?" alex asked curiously.
"Because, unless the tribunal willed it, or you were led by one of the members, you would not be able to find the entrance, nor would you be able to really navigate it." rose said.
"I've heard stories about their valley, I never knew if any of them were true." Glinda said.
"they are." Rose said with a smile.
"anyways, we seem to have gotten off track, China princess? Marshall? Do you have anything you'd like to add?" Ozma asked.
"not really your majesty, I mean, dorothy is on board with letting them come back, I had personally never heard any stories of the tribunal, but if dorothy thinks it's a good idea, perhaps we should consider it." Marshall Mallow said
"I had heard of the tribunal, but always wondered why they didn't take council against the wizard's ruling, I mean, given the circumstances they had the power to do so if they desired." The china princess said.
"what were their rules on over ruling the ruler?" Alex asked curiously.
"only if they truly felt that it was wrong they would take council and make an executive decision on it." The princess said.
"I think they decided to just sort of roll with it, because my sister was responsible for the attack, she instigated the entire event, and now that I think about it, it must have been to try and give the entire tribunal a black eye." The jester said.
"Well it worked, they didn't think that the citizens of Oz would forgive them for one slipup and allowed the exile, the wizard's granddaughter, Aislynn diggs, the girl that I take care, said her grandfather mentioned making many mistakes, and hoping that one day someone could right them, and that's honestly what I think we should do." Dorothy said holding up the whistle again.
"well, Locasta, or Glinda, any thoughts?" Ozma asked.
"it's up to you two, in the end, but we can vote on it if you'd like." Glinda said.
"Dorothy's opinion alone is worth a million votes." The Mayor of Munchkinland said.
", first, I want to address something, kid, you said they no longer wish to pass judgement?" the jester asked turning his attention to dorothy.
"yes, I have the letter with me if you want to see it?" Dorothy offered.
"If you'd like to." The jester said.
Dorothy nodded and took the letter from her pocket and handed it to him. He quickly read it before handing it to Rose. Once it had gone around the table and gotten back to dorothy, he smiled.
"well, the letter basically says that the tribunal is giving you and Ozma the power to order them around, they will not pass judgment over anyone unless one of you two allows it." The jester said.
"but they, at one point, were the eyes around Oz, they knew almost anything that went on, the animals, the fairies, wind sprites and spirits, were all their informants, as well as their messengers." The queen of the field mice said.
"I'm starting to think that my section of the forest was more cut off from the outside than I originally thought, we all feared the tribunal, more than I was afraid of anything." Lion said
"that wasn't entirely unusual, the tribunal was a whisper, noninterference was their policy for the most part, again only Fayth and Zinnia ever really left." Ozma said
"well, if we do allow them back, I can seek some forgiveness for my sisters." The jester said.
"that's very nice of you, considering all they did to you." Ozma said.
"they weren't always evil, I don't know what happened to them to be honest, they disappeared for a time and then emerged hell bent on conquest." The jester said.
"took over the west and the east, it was everything Locasta and I could do to stand up to them, but by all standards they hadn't done anything wrong yet, it's believe that before they were exiled they had intended to try and trick them into one place so that they could hold them and pass judgement." Glinda said.
"it would never have worked, together, the two of them were practically unstoppable, you would have needed the power of Lurline to bind them." The jester said.
This caused dorothy to pause for thought, she had once called upon the spirits of the two witches, who were restored to their younger forms, to help her fight against him. Though, considering all the trouble she had caused them she suddenly wondered why they had tried to help her in the first place, or how why it was even possible for her to summon them, considering, that by everything she knew, when you're dead you're dead there's rarely coming back from it. though the jester had come back, it was his second chance, a new lease on life for him, he had been forgiven, but no one would forgive the oppression of the wicked witches. However, she was snapped out of thought by alex snapping his fingers in front of her.
"you all right?" He asked curiously.
"hmm? Oh, yes, I'm fine, was just thinking about something, um, jester, after this is all said and done, I'd like to talk to you about something." She said.
"anything you'd like." The jester said with a smile.
"well, if no one has anything else to add, I propose the vote, all in favor of allowing the tribunal to return and take some part in Oz's politics, raise your hand, or paw." Ozma said.
Dorothy smiled as everyone raised a hand, or in the case of lion, and the queen of the field mice, a paw. She and alex raised their own hands as well.
"seems unanimous then, well, by the power vested in me, I decree that the tribunal's exile be lifted and that they be allowed to take part in the politics of Oz." Ozma said, her voice seeming to echo impossibly around the room.
"Dorothy, if you would be so kind, as to blow the whistle and summon them?" Glinda asked.
Dorothy nodded and brought the whistle to her lips, taking a breath in through her nose, she blew into it. just as she had imagined it let out a rather shrill note which left everyone's ears ringing when she had finished. A moment a strong gust of wind blew through the chambers.
"with respect, your majesties, thank you, it feels so nice to be out in the open again." Came the voice of a young woman from behind.
Dorothy got up and turned, behind her now stood a group of people, twelve in total, six men, six women. All in Robes of scarlet, with the crest emblazoned on the middle of the chest. the one who spoke stepped forward, she was a woman, young of face, to dorothy she couldn't have been much older than Rose. Her hair was a shining silver that went down to her shoulders, on her head wore a circlet that appeared to be made of various types of vines. Her skin was almost as white as the snow to the point where it seemed she was glowing. Her eyes were a seafoam green that seemed to shine brilliantly. Walking up to dorothy, it was noticed that she wasn't more than a head taller than she was. Strapped to her back appeared to be a staff.
"you must be Zinnia." Dorothy said curtseying.
"that is correct child, the tribunal gives you its thanks, Myself, and my sister Fayth act as the speakers for the Tribunal, as this is a political affair given the circumstances.' Zinnia said curtseying back.
"I didn't know you and Fayth were sisters?" Ozma said.
"yes, well, that wasn't something that could be shared, but even when we did tell people, no one would believe it as we look completely different." Zinnia said turning her attentions to Ozma.
With that however another woman stood forward, she was the same age and height as Zinnia, however, her hair was a flaming red, her skin was pale, but not as pale as zinnia's, her face was also covered in freckles starting from her nose and going all the way to her cheeks. Her eyes were an electric blue which seemed to stare right into your soul if you looked at them for too long. Across her back was a bow, but she carried no arrows nor quiver.
"Fayth, Mistress of the Hunt, Representative of Animals" She said curtseying.
"Pleasure, but I must ask, why give me a whistle?" Dorothy asked curiously.
"Because, you have helped so many, risked so much, and never asked for anything in returned in return, we find you worthy of our services, if you hand that whistle to rose to look over, she'll make an observation that you may find rather interesting." Fayth said smiling.
Dorothy nodded and tossed it to Rose who caught it without any hesitation. Looking it over it didn't take long for her to say anything.
"this isn't anything like the whistle you gave me." Rose said.
"correct, it is not like any of the four given out as it was forged specifically for the use of dorothy gale, Halvor crafted it himself at the great forge." Zinnia said turning and pointing to the tallest man of the group
Looking at him, dorothy could tell that he was roughly a head taller than lion and could easily make eye contact with Wiser. He had short grey hair and was old in appearance. The left side of his face had scars that looked as if they had been made by claws going down it. his skin was tanned in appearance, and dorothy felt that his country of origin was likely that of Winkie country. Strapped to his back was a large broadsword by the looks of it. the blade was chipped in places and it was in need of repairs, but this told dorothy that even though he looked old, he was completely capable, the next thought that came to her mind was that he'd probably get along with Jon Foreman quite well.
"he is our Elder, but also the only one who can work the fires of the forge bestowed on us by Roquat the Nome King." Fayth said.
"thank you then, for the honor." Dorothy said as the whistle was passed back to her.
Halvor nodded and stepped forward to join Zinnia and Fayth.
"Next to introduce is Madame Marsinta, Master or sorcery, and my mentor." Zinnia said
A woman who looked around the same age as Halvor stepped forward. She was about the same height as Lady Cassandra was when she wasn't leaned over her staff. Her Skin had more of a reddish pink tint to it, dorothy assumed it was because of some magic. Her eyes were a pale grey and were covered by a pair of spectacles that sat on her long-hooked nose. She bowed and stood next to the other three.
"Then Benton, Master Archer, original Master of the Hunt, My mentor." Fayth said.
A man, around the same height as The Jester stepped forward, strapped to his back was a bow, but once again there was no quiver and no arrows. Across his face from the top right corner of his forehead going diagonal to the left side of his chin where scars that looked like they probably came from the same source as Halvor's. his right eye was a deep brown, but his left eye was completely glazed over and white, like Alex's father's eyes had been for a time. He was dark skinned, where he wasn't scarred, the scars showed up as a very bright pink. Around his neck was what appeared to be a leather collar, with jewels studded around it, there were scars visible around it though, so she imagined he wore it to distract people from the scarring. He had long rather unkept hair that when down just past his ears.
"don't ask about the scars, he won't tell you about them anyways." Zinnia said shrugging.
"Next is Melody, our Healer, medicine person, whatever you prefer." Fayth said.
A younger woman stepped forward, she had lavender colored hair, and lavender seemed to be braided into it as well. She was about Zinnia's height. She was dark of complexion like Benton but had no scarring anywhere. She had emerald green eyes that seemed to glow and look right into everyone's souls. Strapped to her back was staff and at her side was a satchel.
"then we have Dorian, he's a warrior, not really much to be said about him." Zinnia said
A man stepped forward, he was almost as pale Zinnia, his hair was kept short, he looked like he had just exited a fight as he had a black eye. Though otherwise his eyes seemed to be a light hazel type color, he was as tall as zinnia and walked with a bit of a limp. Strapped to his back was a what appeared to be a pole, and a sword.
"likes to spar with some of the bears in the sanctuary, never listens when we tell him not to." Zinnia added causing him to glare at her.
"then there's Mercer, he's our book keeper as well as a warlock, great relationship with the leader of the wind spirits." Fayth said.
Mercer was about the same height as Dorian and Zinnia, though he could have been a bit taller, dorothy really couldn't tell, nor could anyone else. His hair was raven black, his skin had a greyish green tint to it as if he were going to be ill, but he looked completely healthy otherwise, strapped to his back was another staff, that had a large ruby set in the top. He looked young, but his face said he had seen much more than his fair share.
"one of the smartest men you could ever meet, however, never damage any books he lends you or he will get rather cross, he's rather adept at summoning balls of fire." Fayth said shuddering.
"anyways, then there's Fenrir, he is the one who helps control the animals, nearly indestructible, he's also on good terms with the water nymphs and wood fairies." Zinnia said rolling her eyes at her sister.
A man, with a shaved head, rather large ears stepped forward, he had deep blue eyes and a rather smug smirk on his face. He was a about the same height as the other two men whom had stepped forward. His eyes had regret to them though. He was young, not as young as Zinnia and Fayth by any means, but young. He looked like he could hold his own if he had to. Strapped to his back were a bow, a magic staff, and a sword, he didn't look like he should be able to carry all that comfortably, but he looked fine. He was pale, but it leaned more to a pale pink than anything else.
"then there's Hilda, she's the second youngest next to Zinnia and me, she trained alongside Zinnia, but zinnia and I were the ones who were content to be the eyes and ears to the outside." Fayth said.
Hilda stepped forward, she was the shortest of the bunch, though she was older than Zinnia Fayth but not by much, her hair was a pale gold color that went past her ears and started curling there. to any observer it would have been safe to assume that she was a Munchkin, and in fact she was. Her eyes were a dazzling shade of green that seemed to shift color to blue at a moment notice then back to green. Strapped to her back was a magic staff that was the right length for her to use.
"before you say anything, yes, we know about the eyes, no, she's been doing it since birth, or at least that's her story." Fayth said
"anyways, the last woman is Serena, she's adept at water magic, but also has a way with animals, able to pacify the most restless of them in ways none of us can." Zinnia said.
Serena stepped forward, she was a head taller than Fayth and zinnia, her hair was long and raven black, going down past her shoulders. Her complexion was rather pale as well, but at this point dorothy assumed that years of isolation from the rest of your known world would do that to one's skin. Her eyes were yellow as opposed to any of the normal colors anyone else seemed to have. She wore a set of round glasses that were connected to a chain upon her neck. she had a staff strapped to her back like many of the others.
"then finally, is George, he is an expert of all the tribunal's areas of expertise, he is the younger brother of Halvor." Fayth said.
The final man stepped forward he did indeed look like a younger version of Halvor, though he was about a head shorter, his hair wasn't grey, but a dirty blond, he wasn't wrinkled, and had no scars. He looked rather frazzled, as if he were stressed out, he had nothing strapped to his back
"and that's all twelve of us, the Tribunal, Oz's former supreme jury." Fayth said.
The twelve of them bowed and then stepped back. Dorothy curtsied in return and Ozma got up and did the same.
"it is unnecessary to stand and return the bow to the tribunal, but we thank you for your courtesy." Zinnia said.
"perhaps you shall eventually be permitted access to the sanctuary and get to talk to each of us individually, however if you have any quick questions you wish to ask, any of you, ask them now, as the other are anxious to get our presence once again known, and the Hunt must start again, we aren't sure how the giant wolves in Winkie country have returned, as far as we are aware none have left the sanctuary, while its not impossible to leave it without us willing it, its still quite difficult." Zinnia said.
"yes, do you have contact with the entire council of immortals?" Alex asked.
"indeed, they have been watching us, providing us stuff that we could not hire couriers to find, we've been hoping the Fairy queen Lurline would stop by but she's always busy with her other domains, but I must say, Ozma does bare a striking resemblance to her." Fayth said.
Ozma smiled and sat back down, her face going a tad red.
"though we each picked our own paths to follow, we all technically represent each other, we each have our own bow, bow staff, sword, and magic staff, you may notice the lack of arrows, there is a reason for that but that will have to wait for another day, away from prying eyes." Zinnia said snapping her fingers.
immediately the sky went dark, each member of tribunal raised their hand and a ball of light flew out. The lights made a break for an open window and shot into the sky. Walking over to the window dorothy saw a rather ghostly version of crest, as detailed as accurate as the seal on the letter and the crest on the robes floating in the air.
"the tribunal's return is known but it must still be passed on." Fayth said in a dreamlike monotone.
There was a flash of lightning and a crack of thunder. When dorothy regained her bearings from being dazed, she turned to find only Fayth, Zinnia, the jester, alex, Glinda, Locasta, China Princess, marshal Mallow, and Ozma still at the table. The queen of the field mice, general candy apple, the mayor of Munchkinland, lion, and Rose were gone.
"sent to where they're meant to be I assume?" The jester asked curiously
"Indeed." Zinnia said with a smile.
"Lion is the shortest distance away, only ended up in a nearby clearing, odd, figured he'd have been sent to his old pride in the munchkin forest." Fayth said looking in a hand mirror.
"sister, hush, why don't you go to Winkie country and check on mommy and daddy, I'm sure they'll be happy to not receive letters.
"your winkies?" the jester asked.
"yes, and our parents were part of the tribunal before us, while many of the members have been there long before we were, the twelve is where the number stopped," Fayth said.
"but a new elder is only appointed if the previous one manages to die, which in Oz, is rather difficult." Madeline said appear in the room.
"ah, yes, you must be the hatter we've been hearing so much about, I must say, the Tribunal is impressed by your abilities." Zinnia said with a smile.
"thank you, your honor." Madeline said curtseying.
"actually, this begs a question, everyone was meant to go to where they belong, so why didn't you go with rose, Jester?" Fayth asked
"Because the kid here wanted to talk to me when all this was done, something, I imagine pertaining to my sisters." He said turning his attention to her.
"Yes, and I'm not sure if Fayth or Zinnia will have an answer to this either, but, why was I able to call upon your sisters to aid me that time we battled, no one comes back from the dead, and they resumed once I was turned to stone, I think, but how is that possible?" dorothy asked.
"I'm honestly not sure, perhaps someone feels a little sorry for them, remembers how things used to be, before they both went 'round the bend." The jester said with a shrug.
"one person is enough to allow the spirit to linger." Zinnia said.
"but it is known to us that they restored to their youthful state instead of the curse of age, meaning someone desperately wanted to turn back the clock and bring them back for a second chance." Fayth said smiling.
"I see, well, I kinda felt sorry for them, their deaths were accidents, one was beyond my control, the other was truly an accident." Dorothy said remembering the shriek of horror the witch let out when she began melting.
"but there aren't many that remember how they used to be, and what they were like." the jester said.
"I'm sure there are a good number, five, maybe six." Madeline said.
"depends, or perhaps there's another power at work, one that allows them to remain." Fayth suggested.
"depends on what?" Madeline asked.
"what you prefer to believe, I mean, the witch of the west was the one who was cursed, no one is to sure why or how her sister got cursed." Zinnia said shrugging.
"yep, even I don't know, and I was probably the next closest person to them." The jester said.
"any idea where they disappeared to for those years before they came back and took over Munchkinland and Winkie country?" Zinnia asked.
"not a clue, they never cared to tell me, I wasn't more than a test subject." The jester said.
"and they answered for their crimes." Fayth said
"unfortunately when they went down the path they did, they didn't come back from it, people forgot about who they were, and focused on what they became, they were both kind people once, the stories you may have heard, how they grew up in a broken household, bad parents, were never true, it was just people's way of justifying their villainy. And in time, that's what people came to accept." The jester said.
"tragic isn't it?" Fayth asked with a smug smirk.
"that's life isn't it? people often wondered why you lot never intervened." The jester said with a shrug.
"we wouldn't have stood a chance against them, together they had more power then we could control, they would have massacred all of us, there was no way to get one alone without the other retaliating." Zinnia said.
"I know that, but people were always looking at you guys as all powerful, you were the only ones who could call death upon people if it were necessary, no one was beyond your reach." The jester said.
"but we must catch someone to pass judgment, we can't meddle, we can suggest, but we must let things go the way they are meant to, we wanted to take them, but we couldn't, western territories were keeping the Hunt busy, leaving only eleven of us." Zinnia said.
"we could've taken mombi at any time for her crimes, but there was nothing definitive, we can't search property unless people consent, which is rare if you're up to anything bad, our most sincere apologies for that your majesty, if we had only known." Fayth said.
"I don't hold it against you." Ozma said.
"Well, I nothing interesting is going on in here, I'll just return to my work." Madeline said disappearing.
"Locasta and I should probably get back to work, got to retrieve Dorothy's cousins soon." Glinda said getting up.
"thank you for your time lady Glinda, and Locasta." Fayth and zinnia said bowing.
The two of them bowed back and left the chambers.
"China princess, Marshal? You two have been awfully quiet." Alex said turning to them.
"very astute of you." The jester said sarcastically
"what is there to say?" The china princess asked.
"not much to be honest, our time is still quite short, we must depart soon, however, dorothy, this appeared at the grove of mist, which is in our sanctuary, does it mean anything to you?" Zinnia said producing what appeared to be a large coin and handing it to her.
Dorothy looked it over, turning it in her hand a few times. It was a silver coin, one side had a Pegasus on it, the other side had what appeared to be a gryphon. Around both pictures were what she recognized as Latin, though she couldn't read it. however, it felt familiar to her, though she couldn't recall ever seeing one before.
"not really, I mean, it looks familiar, but I can't recall ever seeing it before, what is the grove of mist?" Dorothy asked.
"its kinda like a bridge, between this world and whatever comes after, at least that's how the immortals explained it to us, they can't even explain its existence." Zinnia said.
"but the mist is harmless, every now and again an object will come through pertaining to specific people, but only when your name was mentioned did the coin materialize." Fayth said.
"then it's probably of some importance to her, maybe its from the future?" The jester asked.
"we speculated and debated on that point as well, as the spirit world is omnipotent and omniscient, but can not take much of an active part in anything." Fayth said.
"anyways, our time is now up, we thank you for your time, we thank you for letting us out, remember, if you find yourself in a bind miss gale, just use the whistle, and we shall do whatever is within our power to help." Zinnia said bowing.
The two sisters then walked over to each other and joined hands before vanishing. The sky outside the city cleared completely and it was once again bright and sunny.
"you know, I think I've seen a coin like that before as well." Alex said looking at it closely.
As I said in the disclaimer, it was a long one, if you made it this far, feel free to leave a review. However, as I iterated on at the top, these characters will likely get described again later in the story. Feel free to leave criticism on this point as well.
