Chapter 94: The Gathering Storm
Note: In my headcanon, the first scene in this chapter probably happened in the canon series as well. Because Kaioshin seemed to know this stuff in the movie, but he never struck me as the kind to know that sort of thing.
Yes, I know, another chapter with a Kaioshin scene, an Earth scene, and then a mysterious place far away for some foreshadowing. It just happened that way. Trust me, I know what I'm doing. This is all going somewhere. (Also speaking of last chapter, made a couple edits, added a scene break back in where one was missing and corrected something else I can't really recall.) Actually threatening villains will return next chapter.
Got some epic fanart! Zeronified's deviantart page now features a cool drawing of kid Break, and Trent did a cover for the battle with Piccolo, including a coloured version (it's on imgur)! And I know someone else did a drawing of Raditz recently, but damn it, I can't remember who it was. Whoever you are, message me, I'm sorry your name slipped my mind!
Also some quite important stuff at the end of ze chapter.
Sacred Kai planet, once again…
Kibitoshin had been about to leave Old Kai alone, but then a passing thought struck him. "Hey…ancestor…"
"What is it this time?" Old Kai asked grumpily.
"Well, it's just…you must know a lot of the universe's secrets. You've got your omniscient vision…"
"Well, of course!" The scrawny Shin-jin's chest puffed out with pride. "I doubt you could find anyone in the whole universe with more knowledge at their fingertips than me!"
"Right…in that case, there's something that's been bothering me." The Kaioshin flushed slightly—it sounded so trivial. "I was wandering Otherworld a few centuries back, near the Shin-jin training grounds where I met Kibito…and I found a cave. I almost walked right past it, but a ray of sunlight struck it at the right angle, and I saw that there was writing carved into the wall.
"I created a light and examined it—it was in our own holy runic script."
"To be expected, if it was on one of our worlds," Old Kai reasoned. "Go on—what did it say?" He could have checked himself with his omniscient vision, assuming the cave was still intact, but he felt it was better to be courteous.
"I don't remember exactly," Kaioshin mumbled. "It didn't seem that important until much later—and by then I was busy hunting Bibidi, and then I forgot entirely until recently." He wracked his brain. "It was a mad-looking scribble…it kept going on about 'The Sleeping One'. It said 'we are not gods. The Sleeping One is the true god.' And lots more along those lines."
"Huh. 'True gods', huh?" Old Kai nodded sagely. "Well, it's true we're not omnipotent. We're born, we age, we can be killed, and there are several beings who vastly outstrip us in power…" He paused, considering this. "But it could always be referring to the Hakaishin. I don't think there's any greater being than that—in power, in stature, or anything really."
"Hakaishin?" Kibitoshin quickly decoded the meaning of the name. "God of Destruction?"
"Why, yes," Old Kai said, nodding. "Lord Bills is his name. Me's sake, you don't know about Bills?!"
"Uh…no…" The younger guardian smiled nervously. "As I've told you, my education was cut off…when Buu…"
"Hmm, surprising that you haven't seen him." Old Kai frowned. "He is up and about every few hundred years, 'Sleeping' must simply refer to what he does for those few hundred years in between every period of activity." He stood up, stretching his creaking limbs and running a hand over his tiny moustache. "Then again, the universe is a big place, and his ki isn't the kind most of us can sense. So maybe it's not so surprising."
"Wait…Bills, you say? I did once encounter a cat-like creature by that name. I was investigating a lead on Bibidi, and I crossed paths with him on a barren world—he had an attendant with him."
"Yes, that would be Whis." Old Kai nodded. "The two are inseparable. Mainly because someone has to correct Lord Bills' atrocious memory."
"The planet exploded shortly after I left…I assumed a meteor impact destroyed it, and those two were killed in the explosion."
"Not at all," Old Kai said, smirking. "Bills was simply doing his job—destroying planets. He is our opposite, as we provide impetus for new planets to grow, and life to develop on those planets." This was, in fact, the reason for the abundance of humanoid intelligent life in the universe—the Kaioshin modelled many species partly after themselves (this was also the cause of the unusual popularity of pointed ears and varied skin colours in intelligent species).
"Oh…! He is as powerful as us, then?"
"Far greater. He could have destroyed Majin Buu with no effort. His power, in fact, cannot be measured as ordinary ki at all…"
"R…Really…?!"
"But don't go thinking you should've got his help against Buu. Lord Bills is not evil, but he is by no means on our side. The best way of dealing with him…is to stay out of his way…"
Aka drew back its head, puffing up its cheeks. With an awkward-looking lurch forwards, it belched out a fiery green bolt of energy. "Wahaha no Ha!"
Goten threw his arms up, catching the blast and backpedalling to keep on his feet as it pushed him back with surprising force. His aura met the verdant flames surrounding the attack and was swallowed up, golden shafts of light vanishing into the strangely dark glow of the attack, which seemed to be sucking in more light than it was giving out.
"Hrrr…rrrRRREEAAAH!" Somewhere, he found the strength to shove the Wahaha no Ha up into the air, sweat streaming from his body. "Huh…hhh…ahuh…" He grinned. "No problem."
What a fighter…! Vegeta Jr. was rooted to the spot, staring at his tenacious ally.
"Interesting." Aka smiled. "But how about the second form?" It formed another green sphere between its hands, bringing it up in front of its mouth.
"Attack!" Vegeta shouted, jumping at Aka, one fist drawn back. "Before he has time to—"
"Too late!" Aka roared. "Super Wahaha no Ha!" An explosive burst of breath blew the ball outwards, into a hail of yellow arcs. They spread out into the surrounding air.
Raditz eyed the expanding storm of ki beams nervously. "That…could be a problem."
"Are you kidding?" Goku answered. "You know who's back there, right? You said it yourself a second ago." As he spoke, a nearly-solid energy dome appeared behind them, containing the spreading blasts.
Gohan and Break, both Super Saiyan 2, each stood with one hand touching the base of their barrier. In the next few seconds, the glimmering hemisphere faded.
Vegeta was stunned once again. They're both even stronger than Goten! How could a world like this exist?
No need to go all-out, I suppose, Gohan decided, refraining from transforming again; Break was having similar thoughts. "Goten, Break—together!"
"Right!" The Super Saiyan 2 trio launched themselves at Aka, each planting a fist in his stomach and blasting him away with the aftershock of the earth-shattering impact.
The rotund monster didn't just fly away; it bounced, before flopping ungracefully to a halt and swaying to its feet. "Little insects…I'll…kill you all! My ultimate technique…!" It opened its mouth wide, a red light shining from within, emanating the same oddly dark glow the previous attacks had. "FLAMING WAHAHA NO HAAAA!"
An energy sphere that size shouldn't have been able to fit out of Aka's mouth; but somehow it did, rolling inexorably towards them. Its shadow-light advanced ahead of it, seeping over the landscape like a poison, tinting everything and everyone its hellish glow.
"Get ready!" Gohan growled. Guess I'll have to go all-out after all! His body tensed up, preparing for the immense strain of his ultimate transformation.
Nobody else seemed to be making a move, which was why Gohan was taken completely by surprise when Raditz appeared in front of them, Super Saiyan 3 hair blowing wildly in the storm of power building around the Kamehameha wave fully-charged in his hands. "HRAAAAAAGH!" He launched the wave with wild abandon, kicking off the ground and letting the recoil knock him into the air, the backblast flattening a row of trees.
Th…That's it, then, Vegeta thought. I'm dreaming. This guy…there's no way.
Raditz dropped to the ground as the light faded to reveal a ten-mile long impact crater in the wasteland heading away from Orange Star City; and no sign of Aka. He wiped his forehead, breathing deeply as he powered down.
"Uh, Dad…" Break frowned. "I think you just killed a guy."
"Sorry. But, y'know, repressed aggression against Frieza's army. Plus, those two really weren't the kind to change—if we'd let them leave they'd just go find somebody else to terrorise."
"That's still not…" Gohan objected.
"Don't care." Raditz waved his objections away. "C'mon, Launch, Break—show's over. Getting to lunchtime."
"Sure is," Launch agreed. "Your turn to make it today."
The odd family took off, parents bickering. "It was my turn yesterday!"
"Yeah, only because you slept through the entire day before, and I had to do all three meals!" Their voices quickly receded into the distance.
Gohan sighed. "What is that guy's deal? Sometimes, he's just like dad…and then again, he's completely different…"
Goku flew over, landing with his family and their visitor. "Sooo…Vegeta…I guess you probably wanna go home now you're safe?"
"You're joking, right?!" The saiyan child's eyes were shining with glee. "There's so many incredible fighters here!" He grinned fiercely. "It's clear to me that this is where the action is—there's nobody to train with at all back home! Oh man, I can't wait!"
Without even a thought of homesickness… Goku mused. He's saiyan through and through…you'd hardly believe he's Tarble's. I guess some things skip generations. "Well, you'd need a place to stay…"
"Wherever Goten lives," Vegeta enthused. "He's my first goal to overtake!"
"Now hold on!" Chi-Chi interrupted. "It's not that easy taking in another child—we'd have to extend the house, it means more food, more clothes…"
"Aw, c'mon, Mom, please!" Goten begged, hugging her leg. "It'd be so much fun! Gohan barely plays with me anymore…it'd be like having a brother who's actually my age!"
She took in a deep breath, then nodded extremely slowly. One accusing finger pointed in Vegeta's direction. "Cause any trouble and you're out, young man! Understand?"
The young prince saluted before his conscious brain kicked in, pride momentarily forgotten in the face of the unconquerable wrath before him. "Y-Yes, ma'am!" What have I signed up for…? He wondered, sweating profusely.
Across the boundaries that divide one universe from another…
A shuffling, bent figure, cloaked and hooded in extravagant purple and gold, made its way down the twisting passage, supported by a gnarled wooden walking-stick. Warping, twisting runes lined the walls, seething as if to escape their two-dimensional prison, warping the architecture into shapes unheard of by mortal geometry.
After a few minutes of this slow progress, it reached its destination. A mottled beak clacked together from beneath the hood, and from it came a voice withered and wearied by time beyond counting and knowledge beyond imagining.
"One does not simply walk through the Sixth Universe unnoticed," it said slowly, beady eyes gazing up at the caged monstrosity before it. "Identify yourself, creature."
The imprisoned being stopped pacing, fixing the robed questioner with a pointed stare, replied in tones of crushed gravel and breaking rock.
"Prometheus Shenron."
Don't worry, Vegeta fans. He will have his moment. His role will grow in the future to more than just staring at the others be awesome.
Okay, so yeah. Important stuff. Several things, actually.
First: Screen finally fixed! We're all good now, regular updates should be a thing.. So, top six DBZ fics/top two still-running DBZ fics, you think you've been able to handle me so far? LET'S SEE HOW YOU STAND UP TO MY FULL POWER!
Second: Changes to plans for Even Further Beyond. Now, it's an idea in progress, plans are constantly changing, but the important thing here is that some of these changes mean that the final thing will directly contradict the 'previews' I've already given. So it's handy I put that stuff-will-change disclaimer, eh?
There are two main changes that'll affect what you've already seen:
1. The seven Shadow Dragons are slightly different. The Shenrons are now:
Alpha
Kronos
Glacius
Helios
Hephaestus
Hades
Gaia
(Alpha and Gaia are female is another change.)
Yes, I know Prometheus Shenron just appeared at the end of this chapter. Evidently he's not one of these seven dragons. Which begs the question of what exactly he is. We'll see.
2. The plotline is going to be less like GT. Previously it was just going to be Goku and Raditz running around the world, finding the scattered Shadow Dragons and beating them up to get the Dragon Balls back, pretty much like the GT saga.
Now…it is not. (Ominous laughter)
And now! For the final really important thing…it's the thing I've been dreading to write for quite some time now…(and sorry, people who don't like long author's notes sections—my readers can be pretty verbose, so this gets quite long; feel free to skip it if you're not interested.)
The FTL issue.
Yep, we're in non-italic writing here.
Dr. Space is back. WITH A VENGEANCEokay no, not really with a vengeance. I mean, what would I even avenge. C'mon, that's stupid. Why would you even think that.
All right, so I'll just post all the opinions on FTL DBZ or not here, then my own opinion, before and after hearing from all of you, at the end. Note that I'm only posting what's been left by you guys in reviews, because I have a crapton of PMs and it's be nigh-impossible to sort through them all to find the one or two relevant messages. Sorry. If you think I haven't done your opinion justice and some of your most important points were made via PM, tell me; I'm willing to continue this discussion next chapter.
(I'll also put some responses in italics…but only in cases where I have a particular objection to one of your points. I don't have nearly enough time to fully respond to all of these…one does not simply get 500 DBZ fans to agree on something like this. So just assume that any point of yours I don't directly respond to, I don't have any problem with!)
Your opinions
maximusrexmundi:
"Can of worms coming on ;-) ... I think that most if not all the current (sayian) fighters can go FTL. That said, knowing physics like I do, I also think that the fundamental limits of the DBZ universe are different. In our reality, light speed is a limit because light limits the transfer of physical information; no THING can travel faster than it [for various scientific reasons, and under the stipulation of normal spacetime]. That isn't the case of DBZ, because we've seen the characters 'sense' incoming enemies in attack pods that are by design going faster than light, therefore information CAN move faster than light in DBZ. Because of this, the exponential increase in energy needed as you approach light speed in our universe doesn't apply, which would leave the door open for a linear speed progression (aka KE1/2 mv2 where kinetic energy is linear, increasing the speed at a constant squared rate). Now with that established, we just have to figure how much kinetic energy could be produced. A simple thing would be to assume a doubled power level doubled their energy, but time and again, Dragonball and DBZ show its not that simple. For this purpose let's just assume it is though. Taking that we just need to establish a power level-speed baseline. This is the controversial bit: I stipulate that by the first WMAT in Dragonball, they were going well over mach speeds. They were already shown to be faster than human sight would allow, they were making booms on contact, AND they were not going in a straight line. I like to put them at around mach 3-4, or 1200ish m/s. Light, as it is in our universe is 300,000,000 m/s. From there its simple ratios. A doubling of speed requires 4x higher energy (again I say this as an upper limit, I would personally consider it more linear as far as power levels go). To simplify the numbers a bit, assuming a power level of 100 at the WMAT in Dragonball, they would need around 10 billion power level. If we go by my notion though that it scales more linearly, we're talking around 30 million. I know, huge gap, that's exponents for you. Either way though, I'm certain that any of the characters higher than untrained SSJ2 can reach those speeds, just given the absurdity of how big that combined power multiplier is."
BCTheEntity:
"3. Lightspeed Part 1: I think BoD gave a pretty good explanation of how space-faring ships might get past the speed of light. It's sciency, and I won't quote it word for word, but for anyone who hasn't seen it, the ship basically partially enters the ultra-thin extra dimension of space/plane of existence/"hyperspace" that Instant Transmission has its users go through, and at the same time generates a bubble of relative space to act as a slipstream, so that the ship doesn't actually expend more-than-infinite energy whilst moving faster than light. Basically, space moves around it, rather than it moving through space, which helps when trying to not crash into space rubble and/or planets. (Side note: This process may or may not be the basic principle behind Kibito's Instantaneous Movement, though if it is, the technique presumably exists on an ultra-efficient level far beyond the comprehension of the Z Fighters at that point in time. It is _Instantaneous_ Movement, after all.)
4. Lightspeed Part 2: With sufficient training in doing so, ki users can expend their own energy to perform a similar feat to the above, but on a smaller scale, applying only to them and anything they carry with them, such as clothes. Technically speaking, this should be manageable at any point beyond a Ginyu Saga level of ki - since Goku presumably learns how to use IT in his base form, with his power level somewhere between the 2-3 million of "Frieza Saga pre-SS" and the ki he possessed at the time he returned to Earth, and given that partial entrance to hyperspace and producing a slipstream probably requires less energy than actually moving oneself through it, it stands to reason that anyone with a PL of, say, 5 million or higher can partially enter hyperspace, generate this slipstream and move faster than light, though it seems reasonable to assume that this can potentially be managed at far lower ki levels, given the average strength of the Yardrat race (though given BoD's reasoning for it, both spaceships and ki users lose maximum FTL speed as their power decreases - ships because a smaller engine, e.g. those of Saiyan pods, is less able to push into hyperspace than a large engine, e.g. those of the Planet Trade Organisation's main ships, the flying saucer-like crafts; ki users because their "internal engine" becomes more powerful the stronger they are, with the same effects as above).
That being said, it's almost certainly the case that most beings don't actually have this training and/or the power level to manage it and/or the initiative to develop such a thing independently (hence why Goku and the Yardrats stick to the somewhat superior IT), and the limit on slower-than-light motion starts coming up at around Buu Saga with the advent of SSJ3 and Super Buu, at which level an increase in power results in lesser and lesser gains in agility and movement speed as energy requirements increase; however, at some point between the typical power level of a Full Power Super Saiyan and that of a Super Saiyan 2, it can become possible, with enough control, to brute-force one's way into the partial hyperspace state, with the slipstream forming automatically as a side effect; by this logic, FTL in individuals isn't seen in DBZ until the end of the Cell Saga with SS2 Gohan (and then with Super Perfect Cell). However, brute-forcing FTL is probably far less efficient than being trained to perform FTL, though the one can progress to the other over time, for obvious and varied reasons; with that in mind, it's safe to assume that all of the main Z Fighters can move faster than light in their most basic forms by the time of the Buu Saga - first by Gohan training himself to do it in base, and then by passing that knowledge on to the other Z Fighters, who are presumably powerful enough to achieve it through training by that point in time (Goku is exempt from this due to deadness, though he is presumably taught it afterwards).
5: Lightspeed Part 3: FTL motion only normally applies to _movement in a direction_; unless a ki user is very well trained in the practice, is concentrating on it as hard as possible, and is being ridiculously careful, trying to use it to speed up their melee attacks will only serve to exhaust them and/or remove their extremities from their torso, since they don't receive increased sensory ability simply because they're slipstreaming their limbs into FTL motion. An exception occurs if they're already powerful enough that their senses would overcompensate in STL combat anyway, but the practice of FTL melee combat would still be dangerous if they screwed up, and all things considered, the senses are still the biggest limiting factor, and particularly so under those circumstances. To clarify who might be able to use melee FTL for the major races and beings featured in DBZ canon, and assuming maximum possible concentration without external factors such as combat damage interfering: most Saiyans probably couldn't manage melee FTL for lack of concentration, same story with any form of Buu (except possibly Evil Buu, who doesn't seem as unfocused as the other Buus, and somewhat less likely Buuccolo and Buuhan, for Piccolo's concentration overriding Gotenks' mindset); the average ki-using human, and/or a Namekian of great enough power (the latter presumably having fused at least once, more likely twice or more), might be able to manage it with enough training, though out of the Z Fighters, Tien and Piccolo would have the easiest time of it, and Yamcha probably the hardest; Cold family-level Arcosians (filler name for Frieza's race, which was never named in canon) could probably do it within a reasonable timeframe of focused training if they knew about FTL and applied themselves in training for melee FTL; artificially altered beings like Cell, who is genetically engineered to be an amazing combatist, would likely succeed at it in a relatively short span of time if they knew it could be done- or, in the case of RR-style androids and other ki-wielding robotic and semi-robotic beings, they may be programmed to achieve melee FTL from the get-go, with ki-enhanced machine components handling sensory input for the purposes of not tearing off extremities."
Deciding FTL movement is a technique, and that Gohan developed it after the Cell saga despite no mention of this ever being made, seems a bit…arbitrary to me.
lunar2eternal:
"on speed. the fastest recorded travel speed is buu arc base gohan's trip from home to satan city. this was at 3,000 kph, or about mach 2.5.
Chapter: 422 (DBZ 228), P3.4-5
Context: talking about Gohan's commute from home to school
Erasa: "Eh! Did you say East 439?! You've got to be kidding. Isn't that 1,000 kilometers from here!? [ ] How the heck do you get here? Even a jet flyer would take 5 hours to cover that distance!"
Note: Gohan later says he can fly this distance in about 20 minutes
Chapter: 424 (DBZ 230), P3.2
Context: flying to Satan City again
Gohan: "This is great! Looks like I'll be able to get there in about 20 minutes like this!"
the fastest actual speed is ssj gotenks circling the planet when he first formed. he circled the planet 5 times in one breath (at no visible point did he get closer than about 25,000 miles to the surface of the earth. the gap between him and the earth was always as wide as the earth itself). if we assume that he came down because he needed air (so 3 minute travel time), that means he was traveling at about 2% of the speed of light. that's right, even gotenks flying in space only got up to about 1/5 of relativistic speeds, which start at 10% of the speed of light.
even buuhan, the 2nd most powerful character in the series, could not travel that quickly through the atmosphere, though. based on the length of goku and vegeta's conversation about fusing, it took him a couple of minutes to get to them. we don't know where they were in relation to his starting point, but even if it was halfway around the world, buuhan doesn't come close to gotenks' space flight speed.
so no, nobody in the series gets even close to light speed. they don't even break relativistic speeds.
now, there are three arguments you will hear from the people who believe that the dbz characters broke light speed.
1. tao pai pai traveled faster than buu arc base gohan riding his pillar. this is true. however, we know he was capable of steering the pillar in flight, since there is no other explanation for his accuracy with it as a weapon. the only way he could be steering it is if he knew his brother's flying technique. so the counterargument is that he rides the pillar up to the upper atmosphere, where there is very little wind resistance, and then uses the flying technique to accelerate. so his speed feat is in the same class as gotenks'. it is not a normal speed feat, and he wouldn't be capable of the same speed on the ground.
2. goku traveled the million kilometer snake way in under 2 days. that's mach 17 iirc. well, not really. see, we are never actually told snake way's length. we are told that a "legend" says that snake way is "about" 1,000,000 kilometers. well, legends being what they are, the distance was probably exaggerated. and "about 1,000,000 kilometers" could be as little as 500,000 kilometers (500,000 rounds to 1,000,000). not only that, but we don't know the distance from king kai's planet to yemma's place, which is the more important number, since goku flew straight back, instead of following the curves of the road. at the very longest, since snake way is a curvy road, the actual distance is only 2/3 the length of the road. but what if the road is curved, or even spiraled? king kai's planet could be just a few tens of thousands of kilometers from king yemma's. we just don't know the actual distance. also, since we know how being in otherworld affects power ups, like ssj3, it's possible that goku used kaioken to double his flight speed (unlike simply increasing you ki normally, kaioken explicitly doubles your speed when it doubles your power), which would throw the whole feat off. and what about the conditions of the road? how thick is the air? does it provide as much wind resistance as earth's lower atmosphere? we just don't know. this feat is so vague as to be absolutely useless in determining how fast a character can travel.
3. goku went halfway around namek in an instant to get to the fight with frieza. no. just no. this is originally from some magazine that placed the frieza fight on the other side of namek from frieza's ship. in reality, the fight was at most a couple of miles from frieza's ship. when porunga was revived, he was visible where goku and frieza were fighting. also, goku's own ship was stated to be too far from the battlefield for him to get to before the planet exploded, which is why he went for frieza's ship."
Surely you don't even have to counter the Taopaipai argument, as A. it's filler, and B. it only compares him to Gohan, it doesn't imply anything about FTL.
Supersaiyaninfinitygohan:
"As for if they would be able to move FTL... Imma actually have to say no on this for Z, even in something like Mastered Super Saiyan 3 or Mystic Goku (10X Kaioken). It just doesn't fit. Even for GT I would be a tad skeptical. However, I could see things in the AF realm (ex. Super Saiyan 5) move around at the speed of photons unhindered by Earth's atmosphere. In any case, as long as enough thought and explanation are put out, I could see Hercule beating Frieza. I wouldn't support it, but I'd believe it."
jomama25:
"I think they can move ftll and the first time was ssj goku vs. full power freza. Peace"
ImmortalMerc:
"As for the speed of light, it's very finicky. One could say that they already do when they're teleporting (aka moving faster than the eye can follow). But that's only to untrained people or people who are weaker than the person moving. You could argue that no one short of Goku can do it since in reality, light can travel around the world seven times in a second. The instant transmission technique is faster than light due to it being instantaneous, there is no delay no matter what the distance. So going by that, I'd say in canon: Goku, Supreme Kai, Cell, and Kid Buu can travel faster than light due to them knowing a variant of an instantaneous traveling technique. It's actually quite an impressive technique, even Bills (now one of the strongest characters in canon and a god to boot) doesn't know that technique and it takes him awhile to travel long distance. In conclusion, I'd say that while the Z fighters are incredibly fast and can move faster than mach 1 (sound barrier), they are not capable of moving faster than light except those I listed above."
Fair enough, though I was more asking about movement speed. Naturally instant transmission and the like are, well, instant. Light does not travel instantly; or at least, it's only instant relative to some things…it's kind of confusing when you get into the theory of relativity.
KaylisDX:
"To put it bluntly? Goku was dodging gunfire and moving so fast that the light that had bounced off of him was still emitting a relatively solid image when he was a child. The best example, however, would be when Supreme Kai was describing the terror of Buu. He claimed that Buu had destroyed countless worlds and Galaxies in just a few years. Even if he had only destroyed two galaxies, that's still a distance far faster than the speed light could manage to cover. The Milky Way Galaxy itself is about 100,000 light years long and 3000 light years thick. To manage this, Buu would HAVE to be able to travel faster than light many times over.
But the earliest confirmed instant of FTL would be when Goku travels Snake.
wiki/Universe
Here it's shown that Snake way is not a measly 1,000,000 kilometers but ABOUT HALF THE UNIVERSE IN LENGTH FROM KING KAI'S TO THE CHECK-IN STATION.
Now for the inevitable "well why does it take everyone so long to get anywhere?" Well that's simple. Everyone is moving at these same, insane speeds too. They are processing information and moving at incredible speeds. It's not that they can't cover ground quickly. The problem is that everyone is processing what's going on at slow motion.
But how do they talk and see at FTL? Simple. Ki. They emit ki from their bodies so it can assumed that it is an acceptable substitute for normal photons. Talking at FTL? Also ki. Buu and Gotenks prove theory of mine. It doesn't matter how much loud you get, sound is still sound and limited by what it travels through and it CERTAINLY can't punch a hole through reality...but what about Ki? Well, Goku is proof of concept that it can move between different realms of reality so in theory it can also break it. This would mean that the screams Buu and Gotenks produced contained ki. Now Gotenks couldn't break reality until he went SS3. But a transformation wouldn't make you louder. I mean, it could but SS3 clearly doesn't. A stronger transformation, however, means stronger ki. Thus, stronger ki SCREAM. Meaning sound can in fact travel through ki.
The assumption here is at this point, normal senses would be completely useless at these speeds. Hell, hearing myself talk outside of my car while going 30 mph is hard enough. So ki acts as a subtle substitute for everything after a while.
As for the debate on whether they're Solar System busters(ignoring Buu was destroying entire galaxies but whatev's), Master Roshi was able to completely destroy the moon pre-Piccolo saga without leaving even a trace of it. This is in the low hundreds, concerning power levels. The moon is also roughly a fourth the size of the earth and has about 1/81 its mass. So Planet Busting is a definite yes by the Saiyan saga. Anything further, if we disregard Buu galaxy busting, would be speculation.
Let's assume that Master Roshi's 100%(bulked up) power level is about 180(makes sense and would go with the scouter readings done by bulma). Multiply it by 81 and we get 14,580. Now for the fun part.
The sun has a mass of 1.989E30 kg and accounts for about 98.6% of our Solar Systems mass. This is the equivalent of about 322,946 times that of Earth's mass. If we multiply 322,946 by 14,580 we get 4,708,552,680. Yeah, almost 5 billion. This is what we're dealing with here for Solar System busting at maximum. HOWEVER!
This isn't taking into account if Master Roshi's blast could have destroyed more than the moon, how quickly it destroyed the moon(extremely quickly it would seem), whether a sustained blast would destroy more or not and a million other factors. The final power level for Solar System busting should in fact be MUCH lower than this if those were taken into account. So let's bring it down by assuming Roshi COULD have destroyed more with the blast(EXTREMELY likely considering he completely destroyed it in an instant), we're using a sustained blast to destroy the solar system, the fact that the sun is almost 4 times less dense than Earth and we can EASILY reign this back to the hundreds of millions in terms of power levels.
Then we have Buu as a CONFIRMED Galaxy Buster. Maybe not all of it right away but at least 2 in a few years time. Once again, Galaxies are thousands upon thousands of lightyears in length and width. The closest known galaxy to us, the Canis Major Dwarf Galaxy, is another 25,000 lightyears away. The closest Spiral Galaxy? Andromeda at 2.5 million Lightyears away.
But most of all, we're ignoring the fact that ships in the dragon ball universe do in fact travel FTL.
Here we see Kami's spaceship reach Jupiter remarkably fast. Jupiter at it's closest is about 365 million miles away from Earth. Light travels at 186,000 miles per second. So if the ship managed to reach Jupiter in say, a second(just for this example), that would make it almost 1963 times faster than the speed of light. Now lets give it a fair shake. Judging by Bulma's reaction. It took merely a few second but to give light a chance, I'm going to put it at 20 seconds. Doing the division, that would make it about 98 times faster than light. STILL much much faster than light. Goku's ship also gets to Namek in 6 days which is about 5 times faster than the ship Bulma, Gohan and Krillin took to Namek.
So FTL speeds are a non-factor in this whole scenario as light speed is broken with EXTREME prejudice repeatedly and happily.
I hope this was helpful."
I don't think anybody can argue against ships in DBZ being FTL. I meant characters. And speaking of, in terms of what you were saying about characters…I don't really think the afterimage technique implies lightspeed…
ZeronSama:
"And of course DBZ characters can move faster than light.
First and foremost the most obvious: instant transmission and instantaneous movement. Kinda self explanitory.
Second if Goku could move as fast as lightning by the end of Dragon Ball, and the speed of light is 2x's the speed of light, then I'd say a simple Kaioken two-ten fold would be able to move as fast as light, let alone a SSJ.
If you want to get real technical about it you could presume Goku doesn't get faster, but only stronger as he trains. So let's say after he reached his max speed at around the speed of lightning. A kaioken attack easily doubles that users speed and reaches further depending on what level (x's 2 would equal double the previous level so quadrupled the users average speed.)
But yet, since a super saiyan is TECHNICALLY a resivoir of energy and not measurably accurate on what it exactly has to do with a persons base power we can only assume it is x. If x50x's power boost from base/y power resivoir we can't tell much about their speed being boosted along with their power.
From Goku's perspective against Freiza he could obviously keep up with Freiza's speed or have greater speed than him.(also they demonstrate kaioken's speed supirority against a super saiyan in BoD)
This is a major plot hole because you can't determine one's speed accurately, but a simple Kaioken user should be able to move at the SOL."
I was under the impression that lightning didn't move anywhere close to even half the speed of light…
I'm pretty sure that, Ultra Super Saiyan aside, more ki always equals more speed and strength; the characters are always clearly shown to be faster when 'stronger' than their opponents.
Plus, I don't follow how we can only assume Super Saiyan is a multiplier. You've lost me there.
Finally, er…Kaioken does not have a 'speed superiority' over Super Saiyan. In BoD, Goku just made his power temporarily higher than Vegeta had been expecting. Kaioken increases ki; so does SSJ. Higher ki means you're faster, unless you're just bulking up.
Anime93:
"No they can't move faster than light. Light is just light... It's like saying being able to move at the speed of thought..."
I had a long debate with this person via PM, but my main problems with this argument were: one, what about the Flash? Superman? Saint Seiya characters? They can all move faster than light—it's fiction! So what's different about DBZ? Secondly, the speed of thought has been scientifically measured, and it takes about a tenth of a second for the average thought to be processed. So, for instance, a rifle bullet can move faster than thought.
Nightmarefire:
"Okay on the topic of FTL DBZ Characters we do have quite a few feats to help
Piccolos Moon Busting Blast Reaching the Moon in Seconds {Its Relativistic yeah but if BOZ Piccolo is relativistic then stronger fighters should be FTL}
Now my Main Feat for FTL DBZ is when King Kai is watching the fight between Goku and Frieza and then loses track of them. Do Note that King Kai can track the FTL Sayain space pods and Gokus ship when it went to Namek so yeah SSJ Goku and 100% Frieza are FTL"
To be fair, the ships were going in a straight line at constant speed, with nothing at all for hundreds of miles around them; Goku and Frieza were not only moving around all over the place, in different directions, accelerating and decelerating, and not in the relatively quiet and empty vacuum of space.
Elbadj:
"DBZ characters and faster than light: personally I don't think any of them make it past that. Around 90% maybe, but faster than that would just be unlikely (not least because of the way it would mess around with causality - people seeing/feeling the effect before they see/feel the cause). Admittedly this is coming from the guy who put a faster than light attack in his story but..."
SSJ3Monkey:
"I know I'm a little late to the FTL debate, but, well, I've always wanted to put in My two cents about it somewhere. So, IMHO, DBZ characters are not FTL, save instant transmission, which is, well, instant. I honestly can't see any character in DBZ being even as fast as Superman, at least in flight/overland speed, who isn't as fast as the Flash, the fastest man in the DC universe, who tops out JUST UNDER the speed of light. Combat speed, i.e. punches/kicks/reaction time/tactical movement, I can see them equaling Superman or perhaps the Flash, but not in distance speed. Additionally, there is, of course, the physics of it. Emc2, and all that, meaning that the closer they get to light speed, the more energy is required to move at all, let alone move faster. I just don't think they have the energy reserves, and more importantly, sustainable energy output potential, to reach relativistic speeds over any real distance. Even in DC, the only way to travel FTL is with technology, be it a ship or a Power Ring of some sort."
I'm pretty certain that the Flash can go faster than light. And depending on the writer, Superman too.
And now, my thoughts:
My opinion prior to bringing up the issue last chapter was that breaking lightspeed was such a significant thing that Toriyama almost certainly would've mentioned it or made it explicit if they had.
However, Whis' flight across the universe in 20 minutes was undeniably FTL. Now, it's probably his staff that did the flying through some kind of magic, but on the other hand he was steering and guiding it himself—he would've had to have reaction speed of a significant fraction of the staff's speed to adjust his course if a planet or meteor or something got in the way; the staff's flight speed was almost certainly massively FTL, so his reaction speed must be at least a little FTL.
Toriyama, in an interview (it's on the Kanzenshuu site, FF doesn't like links) said SSJG Goku and Bills were in Whis' region of power, not too far behind, which would put both of them also at FTL speeds. This does make sense; perhaps it's why those with divine ki are faster than everybody else, and can't be beaten by simple power-divine ki lets you go faster than light. In addition, the force released by relativistic impacts is tremendous, and you'd temporarily have something like infinite mass-in other words, you'd be stronger than everybody else, too. This fits with the movie's presentation of things. And now, having read all of your opinions and thoughts:
I still hold roughly to that point of view, I have to say. Sure, there are definitely moments which could be interpreted as implying FTL speeds, but I don't think that they were intended that way by the author, other than, say, Instant Transmission and the spaceships' flight speed. And, following that, Whis' flight speed. That's pretty undeniable.
(I mean, as far as the manga goes it's pretty hard to establish a timeframe for most of these things, like the moon-blowing-up feats, and while the Snake Way run does have a definite timeframe, see above for why it's a very unreliable feat for calculating anything. As for Gotenks' flight several times around the world—could've been anything from nearly instant to almost half an hour.)
Also, and most importantly to me, from a narrative/storytelling point of view, 'gods can go FTL because of divine ki' is really nice to work with, and a neat explanation why normal ki can't beat them. However, I've often wondered if maybe they could be at least challenged if you just had an insane amount of non-divine ki (high-end GT characters)…and during these discussions, the concept of travel FTL speed versus melee FTL speed came up—so my thought being, what if mortals who simply had ridiculously high power could accelerate, like Superman, to lightspeed, maybe more, if given a straight-line run-up? I'd probably put the threshold for that to be around SSJ4 level.
So…yeah. That's what I'm almost certainly going with. I'm sorry if you dislike it; I certainly understand if you disagree with it. There is, after all, no right answer, or it wouldn't be such a divisive issue that needs this kind of lengthy debating (that is, unless an interview comes out where Toriyama flat-out states it one way or the other. Then about half of the fan community is going to look stupid either way.)
Well, I hope you enjoyed this discussion as much as I did—I certainly have a new respect for my readers' intelligence and debating skills.
Phew, that's over…I have to do Q&A, don't I.
…
Blargh. I'll do two weeks' worth of Q&A next week. This chapter is far too long already. See you then.